Steve to Andre: But I certainly did talk about Quality when i described causality as "an intellectual pattern of VALUE"
Andre: Yes, Steve and I suggested that the 'causality' you refer to is of the SOM variety which keeps on invoking the old 'free will vs. determinism' controversy. Especially when you apply it to the painter: Steve:"...was determined by the painter.It's there because the artist WANTED to put it there." Andre: What the MOQ suggests is that the planting of the brush 'there' was Dynamically arrived at, non-mediated, non-intellectual. But when you then argue that DQ 'caused', or 'determined' or 'produced' the placement of the brush by the painter then you are implying "that Dynamic Quality is a part of a cause and effect system of the kind generated by scientific thinking. But Dynamic Quality cannot be part of any cause and effect system since all cause and effect systems are static patterns."( Annotn 56). DQ is non-mediated, non-intellectual. Herrigel describes this 'moment' as well in Zen in the Art of Archery. To suggest that DQ 'caused' the release of the arrow is to miss the point (even though you may have hit the bulls eye). "In the Metaphysics of Quality 'causation' is a metaphysical term that can be replaced by 'value'... The only difference between causation and value is that the word 'cause' implies absolute certainty whereas the implied meaning of 'value' is one of preference". (LILA, p 107) Steve: You are using SOM as a catch-all criticism here (as is too often done in this forum) of what I'm saying sounding stale to you. It's fine if you think it is static, but to say that it is SOM is just false. I have not invoked a subject object metaphysical view. I have explained what is left of "determinism" once we SUBTRACT the metaphysical baggage. Andre: There certainly was no offense or anything like that intended Steve. I hope that Pirsig's comment in Annotn 56 indicates sufficiently why I felt that your position resurrects a SOM-like thinking. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
