> dmb says: > Here's how I understand the operative terms. "Determinism" is doctrine that > says our actions are not really chosen by us, that we are not in control of > our actions.
Steve: The problem with this definition is that the MOQ agrees that "our actions are not REALLY chosen by us" since "us" doesn't have any REAL metaphysical status. Lila doesn't REALLY have the patterns, the patterns have Lila. So this definition doesn't work to show how the MOQ disagrees with determinism. To affirm or deny that "our actions are not REALLY chosen by us" would be to implicitly accept the s/o metaphysical picture upon which this claim rests (as punches up an appearance reality distinction with the "really.") The MOQ can't do that. Instead it says "mu" to the free will determinism debate about whether choices or causal laws are what is REALLY real and reformulates the issue of freedom to a point where we stop wondering whether "free will" or "causal laws" are more real. BOTH are real in the exact same way. Both are intellectual patterns of value. NEITHER free will nor causality can claim the the metaphysical high ground--the more primary metaphysical status. The metaphysical status that "freedom" has as Dynamic Quality is not a capacity of will and is in no way threatened by the fact that humans can often successfully predict experience in terms of causal laws. dmb: Causal determinism is a particular kind of determinism, the kind that says we are controlled by the laws of cause and effect. Steve: The MOQ in contrast says that causal laws are aesthetic intellectual creations. "Laws of cause and effect" are not embedded deep in the cosmos that give us hints about a primal metaphysical reality. When viewing such laws as intellectual patterns of value, they are tools that humans have developed to try to control their environment, so it is absurd to worry about them being the underlying reality which has been controlling us since the beginning of time. We don't have to fear being controlled by Newton's gravitational laws when we understand them as Pirsigian ghosts. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
