Hi David, On 11/28/11, David Thomas <[email protected]> wrote: > On 11/28/11 4:19 PM, "Steven Peterson" <[email protected]> wrote: >>Steve >> Consulting mystical reality to tell us what is true and false >> is a possible demand that I suppose someone could make of us (and a very >> silly demand that would be (pray on it!)), but mystical reality itself >> makes no such demand. > > Dave: > As I understand it there is no mystic reality per se. The mystic claims that > that through mystic experience(s) one can "directly experience" (ever seen > this phase before) reality as it really IS. They also claim experience like > I have on a day to day basis is always somewhat removed from reality as it > really is. Primarily because of my lack of attention and my intellect > getting in the way.
Steve: That is my understanding, but that all sounds very Cartesian to me. For a pragmatist to adopt that view seems like backsliding into the sorts of dualisms (appearance-reality, absolute-relative, in here-out there, essential-accidental) that pragmatism (hopefully) cured us of. Dave: > Pirsig says that in ZaMM, "Quality is a direct experience independent of > and prior to intellectual abstractions." (Lila-pg 33). Later on under the > MoQ, "Dynamic Quality is the pre-intellectual cutting edge of reality." > Although RMP doesn't say it, could it be said that under the MoQ DYNAMIC > Quality is direct experience independent of and prior to intellectual > abstractions? I think it could. Others here have claimed that this "direct > experience" is the same as James' "pure experience" and pointed to this > quote: > > "Pure experience¹ is the name which I give to the immediate flux of life > which furnishes the material to our later reflection with its conceptual > categories...."(William James from A Pluralistic Universe). > > Often overlooked is what directly follows this quote. > > ".....Only new-born babes, or men in semi-coma from sleep, drugs, illnesses, > or blows, may be assumed to have an experience pure in the literal sense of > that which is not yet any definite what, tho ready to be all sorts of what; > full both of oneness and of manyness, but in respects that don¹t appear; > changing throughout, yet so confusedly that its phases interpenetrate and no > points, either of distinction or of identity, can be caught" (William James > from A Pluralistic Universe). Steve: Where I think this stuff becomes especially problematic is when you add the notion that we need to get ourselves in touch with reality as it really is beyond mere appearances. That's the old Catesian Platonistic junk that we are better off without--the real reality out there behind a veil. > > Which RMP, with no reference to James, eerily echoes: > > "Phaedrus saw that not only a man recovering from a heart attack but also a > baby gazes at his hand with mystic wonder and delight. He remembered the > child Poincare referred to who could not understand the reality of objective > science at all but was able to understand the reality of value perfectly. > When this reality of value is divided into static and Dynamic areas a lot > can be explained about that baby's growth that is not well explained > otherwise." (Lila-pg 58) > > So what is being said, IMHO, is the "highest quality", "pure" experience of > reality is, except for mystics, outside the realm of normal perception or > only available through special training or traditions. Ie Buddhism or some > such. Steve: The question here is the value for this sort of talk for doing epistemology. Is this "pure experience" the true method for justifying beliefs? How is that supposed to work? Is he mystic's knowledge about, say, the best form of government more certain that other people's knowledge about such questions for having access to "pure experience"? How is "pure experience" used in the process of justifying a belief such as the superiority of democracy over fascism? I just see dmb's "I have something that you don't have" talk about radical empiricism as doing absolutely no epistemological work when it comes to practical questions and what is true about the world or what we should do to improve it. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
