Hi Horse, Thank-you. Indeed it is only DQ left out.
-David. On Saturday, 10 March 2012 at 11:07 PM, Horse wrote: > Hi David > > I don't often send through 'me too' posts but I thought I should do so > on this one. > You get to the core of the MoQ in a simple and easy to understand way. > (Static) Patterns (of value) are the means by which we make sense of > (order) our experience and, consequently, how we reason. > Only DQ is left out! > > Thank you > > Horse > > On 10/03/2012 00:58, David Harding wrote: > > Hi Mark, > > > > That's the core of our disagreement. The fact that you do not see the > > beauty in Pirsig's choice of the word 'patterns' and think that his > > selection of the word is rather arbitrary and that "he could have used > > other terms". > > > > From the perspective of the MOQ the correct answer is the best one. > > Wouldn't you agree? I think so... So I think an explanation of the MOQ > > which has beauty in Pirsig's use of the word 'patterns' is better than one > > in which his selection of this word is arbitrary. A beautiful idea has > > harmony with our experience and the MOQ is the most harmonious explanation > > of our general experience ever created. It's for this reason that I don't > > think that the choice of the term 'patterns' is as arbitrary as you imply. > > > > The reason there is beauty in the term 'patterns' is because that is how > > our intellect works. It inductively recognises patterns and designates > > these patterns names. Pirsig has said as much in Zen and the Art of > > Motorcycle Maintenance: > > > > "This morning I talked about hierarchies of thought...the system. Now I > > want to talk about methods of finding one's way through these > > hierarchies...logic. > > > > Two kinds of logic are used, inductive and deductive. Inductive inferences > > start with observations of the machine and arrive at general conclusions. > > For example, if the cycle goes over a bump and the engine misfires, and > > then goes over another bump and the engine misfires, and then goes over > > another bump and the engine misfires, and then goes over a long smooth > > stretch of road and there is no misfiring, and then goes over a fourth bump > > and the engine misfires again, one can logically conclude that the > > misfiring is caused by the bumps. That is induction: reasoning from > > particular experiences to general truths." > > > > Our minds inductively create hierarchies of thought through this logical > > detection of patterns. That's it. That's all there is to it. > > > > If, on the other hand, we use these patterns we have created to deduce > > something not directly experienced, then that is a deductive inference... > > > > "Deductive inferences do the reverse. They start with general knowledge and > > predict a specific observation. For example, if, from reading the hierarchy > > of facts about the machine, the mechanic knows the horn of the cycle is > > powered exclusively by electricity from the battery, then he can logically > > infer that if the battery is dead the horn will not work. That is > > deduction." > > > > You might now be saying.. "but then if Pirsig's choice of the term > > 'patterns' has been selected because of its intellectual component, why do > > we call them inorganic, biological and social 'patterns'? " > > > > The reason we call them this is because they are only ever recognised as > > patterns *because* of our intellect. They only exist *because* of our > > intellect. The recognition of this fact is built in right there in their > > name. > > > > -David. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Saturday, 10 March 2012 at 1:43 AM, 118 wrote: > > > > > Hi David, > > > My guess is that it fit within the rhetoric of the chapter. I am sure he > > > could have used other terms. The point is that it is just a word. > > > "Things" do not really exist as patterns, that is a word he chose at the > > > time. If one wants to say that patterns is the most enlightening term to > > > use for presentation it should be explained. To me it sounds like > > > mathematical formula. As such it leaves a lot out. > > > > > > Encapsulation of the understanding of a book to a single word seems (to > > > me) to dismiss the message. > > > > > > Cheers, and thanks for the question. > > > > > > Sent laboriously from an iPhone, > > > Mark > > > > > > On Mar 9, 2012, at 6:04 AM, David Harding<[email protected] > > > (mailto:[email protected])> wrote: > > > > > > > Hi Mark, > > > > > > > > As an aside to our ongoing conversation. I'd like to have another.. > > > > > > > > Why do you think things are called 'patterns' in the MOQ? > > > > > > > > The values part is pretty self explanatory. > > > > > > > > But why did Pirsig use the term patterns? > > > > > > > > -David. > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > > > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > > > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > > > > Archives: > > > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > > > > http://moq.org/md/archives.html > > > > > > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > > > Archives: > > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > > > http://moq.org/md/archives.html > > > > > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > > Archives: > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > > http://moq.org/md/archives.html > > > > > -- > > "Without music to decorate it, time is just a bunch of boring production > deadlines or dates by which bills must be paid." > — Frank Zappa > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org/md/archives.html > > Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
