If one is prepared for such DQ experiences, there need not be the experience of fear or chaos.
Marsha On Mar 10, 2012, at 8:38 PM, 118 <[email protected]> wrote: > Pirsig is presenting it as existing in DQ, just read his books. > > I have no idea what you are driving at here. What is your point? Are > you stuck in the conceptual world and trying to prove something? Or > are you just trying to be a pain in the neck again? > > DQ exists outside of the conceptual world so how can you say it is not > chaos? Please, go back to school and study some logic or critical > thinking. > > Your one-liner baits are indeed tiresome. > > Mark > > On Sat, Mar 10, 2012 at 12:34 PM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> Chaos is a conceptually constructed idea, it is not DQ. - Marsha >> >> >> >> On Mar 10, 2012, at 2:51 PM, 118 <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> dmb, >>> Yes, these things come to one "as awareness". They are then presented >>> in the form of rhetoric which requires the use of words. The words >>> are secondary; it is what they are presenting which is important. >>> Once we dogmatically stick to the need for a certain word, we are >>> stuck. No 'betterness" can proceed from that, imo. MoQ implies >>> freedom as I see it. Let us not be bound by particular words. >>> Otherwise we only exist in static quality, like a computer. >>> >>> Clinging to DQ is presented in an objective way. It is chaos, because >>> there is no thing to cling to. DQ is not Some Thing. Chaos implies >>> that any static understanding (sq) is completely demolished. This is >>> what happened to Pirsig requiring serious treatment, in my humble >>> opinion. Chaos means nothing to tie one's thoughts to. Believe me, >>> it is chaotic. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Mark >>> >>> On Sat, Mar 10, 2012 at 9:31 AM, david buchanan <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> From chapter 9 of LILA: >>>> "...Since this whole metaphysics had started with an attempt to explain >>>> Indian mysticism Phaedrus finally abandoned his classic-romantic split as >>>> a choice for a primary division of the MOQ. The division he finally >>>> settled on was one he didn't really choose in any deliberate way. It was >>>> more as if it chose him. He'd been reading Ruth Benedict's Patterns of >>>> Culture without any particular search in mind, when a relatively minor >>>> anecdote stopped him. It stayed with him for weeks. He couldn't get it out >>>> of his mind. The anecdote was a case-history in which there was a >>>> conflict of morality. It concerned a Pueblo Indian who lived in Zuni, New >>>> Mexico, in the nineteenth century. Like a Zen koan (which also originally >>>> meant 'case-history') the anecdote didn't have any single right answer but >>>> rather a number of possible meanings that kept drawing Phaedrus deeper and >>>> deeper into the moral situation that was involved.” >>>> >>>> From the Wikipedia article on Ruth Benedict: >>>> "Benedict's 'Patterns of Culture' (1934) was translated into fourteen >>>> languages and was published in many editions as standard reading for >>>> anthropology courses in American universities for years.The essential idea >>>> in Patterns of Culture is, according to the foreword by Margaret Mead, >>>> "her view of human cultures as 'personality writ large.'" Each culture, >>>> Benedict explains, chooses from "the great arc of human potentialities" >>>> only a few characteristics which become the leading personality traits of >>>> the persons living in that culture. These traits comprise an >>>> interdependent constellation of aesthetics and values in each culture >>>> which together add up to a unique gestalt. For example she described the >>>> emphasis on restraint in Pueblo cultures of the American southwest, and >>>> the emphasis on abandon in the Native American cultures of the Great >>>> Plains. She used the Nietzschean opposites of "Apollonian" and "Dionysian" >>>> as the stimulus for her thought about these Native American cultures. She >>>> describes how in ancient Greece, the worshipers of Apollo emphasized order >>>> and calm in their celebrations. In contrast, the worshipers of Dionysus, >>>> the god of wine, emphasized wildness, abandon, letting go. And so it was >>>> among Native Americans. She described in detail the contrasts between >>>> rituals, beliefs, personal preferences amongst people of diverse cultures >>>> to show how each culture had a "personality" that was encouraged in each >>>> individual." >>>> >>>> Pirsig later in chapter 9 of LILA: >>>> “Sometimes you can see your own society's issues more clearly when they >>>> are put in an exotic context like that of the brujo in Zuni. That is a >>>> huge reward from the study of anthropology. As Phaedrus thought about this >>>> context again and again it became apparent there were two kinds of good >>>> and evil involved.” [The two kinds are static and Dynamic, of course.] >>>> “To cling to Dynamic Quality alone apart from any static patterns is to >>>> cling to chaos. He saw that much can be learned about Dynamic Quality by >>>> studying what it is not rather than futilely trying to define what it is. >>>> Static quality patterns are dead when they are exclusive, when they demand >>>> blind obedience and suppress Dynamic change. But static patterns, >>>> nevertheless, provide a necessary stabilizing force to protect Dynamic >>>> progress from degeneration. Although Dynamic Quality, the Quality of >>>> freedom, creates this world in which we live, these patterns of static >>>> quality, the quality of order, preserve our world. Neither static nor >>>> Dynamic Quality can survive without the other." >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>> Archives: >>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>> Archives: >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >> Moq_Discuss mailing list >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> Archives: >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> http://moq.org/md/archives.html > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
