On Sep 3, 2012, at 12:36 PM, 118 wrote: > Hi Marsha, > Yes, we create value in its human interpretation. We must create this from > something. This something is Value. We create patterns through our > interaction with existence, but we do not create these patterns from > Patterns, we create them from Quality. Patterning is a response in search of > Meaning. > > That patterns are "hypothetical" implies that one is in search of proving > them, for that is the definition of a hypothesis.
Hypothetical: supposed but not neccesarily real or true. >From your perspective it may imply searching; from my perspective is does not. > It merely implies consciously acknowledging that our interpretations, >opinions, valuations, practices and traditions are possibly incorrect, >incomplete and subject to change. The dictionary doesn't make 'searching' a >necessity within the definition of 'hypothetical'. If you, like David does >with 'truth' and dmb does with 'intellectual', want to make it up as you go >along, count me out. > That something is "not necessarily true, implies that it could be true. > Otherwise you woul say "is never true". Since we create patterns, there is > no means of proving them except to exist as if they are real. This is the > Truth that David and dmb are trying to explain. And I stated that I don't wish to discuss 'truth'. I am quite happy considering knowledge as static patterns of value without getting true or not true. I have also stated that I have not insisted, or even suggested, that you, David, or dmb adopt my position. > Questioning is appropriate, but the truth therein is the ability to question. > Both of Pirsig's books are inquiries. Yes, and whatever answer I might discover will remain within the the conscious awareness that human interpretations, opinions, valuations, practices and traditions are possibly incorrect, incomplete and subject to change. > They embody the art of questioning which is held as a true endeavor. > Questioning the ability to question, as your logic leads to, is paradoxical > and therefore does not lead to a logical conclusion concerning personal truth. Questioning is sometimes appropriate, but not always a necessity. Why would it be? > If we question whether the patterns we create are real, we create a sense of > uncertainty in meaning. There is no necessity to question everything, and I am not concerned with uncertainty in meaning. Actually uncertainty in meaning might get some individuals out of their static assumptions., and intellectual arrogance is not aesthetically pleasing. Meaning is always relative to immediate context and static history(cultural and individual). > Without meaning, we end up with nihilism. Only if you're stuck in some groundless assumption. > We have to start somewhere, and I am not sure what you are starting with. > What do you consider to be Real or True? If I understand this I can > understand why you promote a circular paradox. Are Patterns real or True to > you? If not, then what is? Long ago I stated that I am accepting the truth that the world is nothing but value. If I find something that is not value, I'll revise this understanding. > Is Quality a pattern for you? Depends on the point-of view. I'll let you guys squabble about what is the truth, and I'll continue to explore knowledge as patterns. 'Truth' has a long history of such debate without culminating any kind of modern consensus. Knock yourselves out. Marsha > Cheers, > Mark > > On Sep 3, 2012, at 1:38 AM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> >> >> David, >> >> "Don’t keep searching for truth. Just let go of your opinions." >> (Seng Ts'an) >> >> Here they come; there they go... >> >> --- >> >> You would construct me from words and call it "true"? David, do not mistake >> me for words. You would construct me as a caring person or non-caring >> person based on my agreement with your particular opinion? No, no, no... >> It is better to consider knowledge as patterns, and to consider patterns as >> hypothetical. It is better to _consciously_ acknowledge that our >> interpretations, opinions, valuations, practices and traditions are possibly >> incorrect, incomplete and subject to change. Value is an experience. It is >> not a judgment about an experience. It is not a description of experience. >> The value itself is an experience. One can hold a pattern to be very high >> value and reliable, but still hold it as a hypothetical (supposed but not >> _necessarily_ real or true). And I don't think it would be >> anti-philosophical to do so. >> >> >> Marsha >> >> >> >> On Sep 1, 2012, at 3:39 AM, David Harding <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Marsha, >>> >>> As indicated, your lack of care or value for truth is showing in a >>> lack of change to your own perspective. If you are not interested in >>> the best intellectual patterns then you are not interested in becoming >>> a better person. >>> >>> -David >>> >>>> Hi David, >>>> >>>> Don't worry I saw no insult. But please understand that the fundamental >>>> principle of the MoQ is the idea that the world is nothing but value. I >>>> am a flow of ever-changing, conditionally co-dependent and impermanent >>>> static patterns of inorganic, biological, social and intellectual value in >>>> the infinite field of Dynamic Quality; I am nothing but value. >>>> >>>> >>>> Marsha >>>> >>>> >>>> On Aug 31, 2012, at 9:25 PM, David Harding <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi Marsha, >>>>> >>>>> The fact that you think this is an insult points to how you see >>>>> everything from a SOM perspective. When you see things from an MOQ >>>>> perspective, with quality at the centre, SOM paradoxes such as >>>>> 'circular truth' disappear. It is undefined Quality first, then ideas >>>>> and truths and everything else. If something is good then it is real. >>>>> If an idea is really good then it is true. Your disinterest in 'truth' >>>>> shows that you are not interested in discussing high quality >>>>> intellectual patterns. This would be indicated in the quality of many >>>>> if your posts.. Please start valuing truth and the quality of your >>>>> posts will increase as well.. >>>>> >>>>> -David >>>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ___ >> >> >> Moq_Discuss mailing list >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> Archives: >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> http://moq.org/md/archives.html > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org/md/archives.html ___ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
