[Krimel] I find it impossible to believe that Pirsig endorses the new MoQ terminological shift you endorse.
[Arlo] I don't think Pirsig has to "endorse" anything here, he is quite clear, and by reading ZMM/LILA back to back its almost blindingly obvious that the Quality of ZMM is what is Dynamic Quality in LILA. Here are just a few excerpts from both, back to back, selected because the language around the terms is identical. Dynamic Quality is the pre-intellectual cutting edge of reality. (LILA) He simply meant that at the cutting edge of time, before an object can be distinguished, there must be a kind of nonintellectual awareness, which he called awareness of Quality.... This preintellectual reality is what Phædrus felt he had properly identified as Quality. (ZMM) This object will not be a primary experience. It will be a complex pattern of static values derived from primary experience. (LILA) Our structured reality is preselected on the basis of value, and really to understand structured reality requires an understanding of the value source from which it's derived. (ZMM) The central reality of mysticism, the reality that Phaedrus had called "Quality" in his first book, is not a metaphysical chess piece. Quality doesn't have to be defined. You understand it without definition, ahead of definition. Quality is a direct experience independent of and prior to intellectual abstractions. (LILA) Dynamic Quality, the source of all things, the pre-intellectual cutting edge of reality, always appears as "spur of the moment." Where else could it appear? (LILA) Since all intellectually identifiable things must emerge from this preintellectual reality, Quality is the parent, the source of all subjects and objects. (ZMM) In all of these, experience preceding conceptualization, indefinableness, parent, source, cutting edge, direct experience; all of these show quite clearly that there is no "terminological shift", endorsed by me or Pirsig. The quote has already been given as to why he abandoned the romantic/classical split, so I won't bother to restate that yet again. [Krimel] I quite agree there is a radical departure from Pirsig at stake here but you are confused if you think I am the one to have made it. [Arlo] Ah, right, is this where you follow Bo's lead and make Pirsig a weak interpreter of Pirsig, that Pirsig made a radical departure from himself and you are here to rescue his ideas? I think that roles been played here a few times, Krimel, it's been done and I am not really interested in yet another reboot of that franchise. By the way, I missed your examples of the "downside of DQ", let me know what you think are some. [Krimel] What then is "wake"? Is DQ the water? [Arlo] To use the analogy, I'd say "DQ" is like the moment the water is disturbed. But like all analogies, it has weaknesses if you try to push for the exact "literal" correspondence. I shouldn't have to explain why that is... Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
