[David] Do you know what's good Arlo - before you intellectually analyse and run it against a bunch of logical rules such as 'consistency' and 'validity'?
[Arlo] Depends. I've read ideas that I thought sounded good on first listen, but when I slowed down and went over what was being said more carefully I changed my opinion drastically. The question remains, what is the role of 'consistency' and 'validity' on the intellectual level? In a philosophy forum, are they important? Are they less important in a pub or at an AA meeting? [David] Arlo, your preferences are your values. Some values are naturally better than others. As we all know what's good - until these values are discussed - we cannot know which values are better or worse. [Arlo] Not sure the point here, I mean, yeah, until two ideas are contrasted we cannot know which are better or worse. Right. Is this where 'consistency' and 'validity' come into play, in your opinion? Or still not so much? [David] So that's the whole point of everything. Your values are the whole enchilada. [Arlo] Yes, but the enchilada needs a context. Its one thing to say "you can think whatever you want" in a pub, is it another to say it in a classroom? Or a philosophy forum? [David] "Hi Marsha and Arlo, *Why* do you value the idea that patterns constantly change and the the intellectual level is made up of butterflies and candy apples? Please show me why those ideas are good? I'm open to those ideas being better than what I think.. " [Arlo] Is that how Pirsig responded to the Chairman? The conflict between Marsha and DMB has little to do with opportunities to present ideas. The conflict continues to be centered on the SOL view of the intellectual level, and the incoherence and inconsistency necessary to maintain the SOL position. They can sling names back and forth all day, it matters nothing to me, but if you think this central conflict is unimportant, or simply a matter of preference, you are mistaken. By the way, why are you (and Ian, calling you out on this too) coming down on DMB for whatever disrespect or emotionally-charged rhetoric he levels against Marsha, but seeing Marsha almost like some innocent victim. She dishes it out just as venomously, and not just in retaliation, she is at least as guilty as he is on these charges, so how about a little 'consistency' in condemning equally in Marsha what you seem to think is just DMB. [David] We get so lost these days in dialectical and logical discussion that we forget that the goal is Quality and to become better people. Folks aren't going to change their mind if you just show them how wrong they are. They're only going to change their mind if you can show them something better. [Arlo] This gave me a bit of a chuckle. Yes, you are right, but saying it like this makes it sounds so simple. And I think a large part of DMB's frustration is that how many times can you parade "something better" out to only be slapped back with incoherence and inconsistency before your patience wears out. I mean, we all strive for the patience of Buddha, but I wonder if even he wouldn't want to just say "that's just fucking stupid" every now and then. [David] Everything is quality - including ideas. Some ideas are better than others. Why some ideas are better than others is open to continual discussion and revision as we become more intelligent as a result of our openness to see, not only the values of others, but the values we hold ourselves. There is no need to constrain. Quality speaks for itself. [Arlo] The problem is that "constraint" also brings "focus". Free for alls are nice, but they seldom lead to anything. I mean, we do constrain simply by saying posts must be about Pirsig's ideas. Should we remove that constraint? If I say "Pirsig advocates child abuse", should I be permitted to say this repeatedly, for years, in a forum that is archived, without anyone taking critical exception to it? But this is, I think, another conflict here. Some people see the MD as a philosophy forum, others as a social club. Maybe it can be both, but I not without some defining boundaries, otherwise just open the forum up, rename it "OD" and let's stop pretending we are here to talk about Pirsig's philosophy altogether. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
