Ron to Marsha:
I can forgive the use of the term "objectivly" and replace it with
"directly" but the meaning of "objective" still asserts itself in the
phrases : "You will learn for the first time what is (truly) happening
to you, around you and within you." "I want to understand the (true)
nature of life." "You'll find yourself observing things objectively,
exactly as they are". It continues to assert an "ultimate truth" that we
can experience "exactly" as it "is". Marsha, it just doesent get much
more objective. I believe it is this "objective" type of attitude which
is causing alot of the conflict. Direct experience is the test of any
and all ideas, it is the proving ground and in this way we may only gain
a better "greater" understanding of ideas we already posess, but it can
not be known as it "is". Our knowledge (understanding) of direct
experience is always culturally derived.
dmb replied:
Yes, this is another version of the mistake that Marsha makes over and over again.
It confuses and conflates the static with the Dynamic. Why does she so often
mention mindfulness & meditation as if it granted her some kind of ultimate
truth? Because she is confused about the meaning of the static-Dynamic distinction.
The paragraphs are worded quite badly, such that they expose this mistake. The
quotes frame the issue as a Platonist or SOMer would, and they're very much at odds
with the MOQ in that respect.
Andre:
Spot on Ron and dmb (as usual) but you both already know that this is lost on Lucy. She's convinced that the MoQ is a metaphysics (a statement of reality) to be 'overcome' and that, 'beyond' the MoQ the 'true' state of things will appear in shining lights of armour. Or even worse, that the MoQ IS the 'beyond' and therefore cannot be a static intellectual pattern of value (a la Bodvar). This also shows conviction in the truth of her own pseudo new-age bent that her states of experience are hallowed by their name, have moved 'beyond' the MoQ (thus being the only 'true' MoQ) and hence her behaviour of responding to criticisms in the way she does. She feels she doesn't need to explain or defend or refute or clarify or whatever because we, petty little people with our petty little lives are too caught up in our own intellectual worlds from which she has taken leave. We are all reified and she's free having to take no responsibility for anything or anybody. And the result? Oh boy,
what a disaster. One karmic SOM dump after another.
And she keeps on hanging on to this exploration of Buddhism and the MoQ (or was
it the other way around?). With her presentation of the quote I immediately
thought of the anecdote of the excited Zen student who came to the master:
'Master, Master, I have seen the Buddha on top of the Lotusflower, with
radiating golden light shining from him and all around him. To which the master
replied: 'Don't worry, it will go away'!
All the perennial philosophies, esoteric teachings, religions and contemporary
'mystic' teachers deny the existence of a 'beyond'. Jesus said:'The kingdom of
heaven is right here'. Su Tung-Po wrote his 'Misty rain on Mount Lu' (the
mountains are still mountains) yet Lucy expects to be able to (magically) speak
Chinese after she has 'seen the light' (Ken Wilber took away this fantasy
especially for those who think that 'enlightenment' will solve all the personal
problems this world is an expression of). For all those who think that after
enlightenment people will be seen as angels with wings, aeroplanes flap their
own wings and chemical plants will be transformed into gold covered domes
radiating peace and tranquility as is happening in Fukushima today.
These philosopies and teachers all warn against 'states of experience'(the
devil's temptation stories) and suggest quite simply the adoption of one's
'natural state'. And if the MoQ is not an expression of and a finger pointing
to this 'natural state' I don't know what is. Anything else (eg a
subject-object metaphysics) IS an altered state of consciousness, an altered
state of experience. To wit, a distorted state.
Sad really. I suggested a temporary ban because of her antics over the last 10
odd years. Perhaps she will show the beginning light of wisdom by imposing it
on herself...if only to learn some decent social communication skills.
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