Ron, I am not going to make a defense against unfounded assumptions, or, for that matter, projections, misrepresentations, sarcasm, irony, parody or insults. I am looking for a clear definition of what dmb means by 'solipsistically subjective,' and actual clearly stated reasons for thinking that I am associated with the term, including actual quotes which give evidence for his reasons and which includes the cited context (quotes): Post: subject - date&time. And if he uses RMP quotes I want an explanation of how they support my association with 'solipsistically subjective'. I am not going to make a defense against what dmb' thinks I think, because most of the time he seems to have no idea what I am thinking. In other words, I am not going to deal with his fantasies. I want cited evidence so I may consider the context in my answer. And I want direct quotes rather than his abbreviated misrepresentations.
Other than that, Ron, I do not understand your post. Marsha On Sep 24, 2013, at 11:36 AM, X Acto wrote: > Dmb criticized: >> And the final claim is extremely objectionable too. Patterns don't exist >> relative to an individual's life history. That claim is just silly >> solipsistic subjectivism. Static pattens are socially constructed over the >> course of a culture's history and development. An individual's life history >> will affect their ability to perceive the static patterns within the mythos >> but those patterns exist regardless of whether or not any particular >> individual is capable of seeing them or not. > > Marsha replied: > There is nothing solipsistically subjective in this statement. "Solipsistic > subjectivism" is a label that you have applied, but never explained. For > understanding, there is a dependency on the individuals static pattern life > history. > > "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance left one enormous metaphysical > problem unanswered that became the central driving reason for the expansion > of the Metaphysics of Quality into a second book called Lila. This problem > was: if Quality is a constant, why does it seem so variable? Why do people > have different opinions about it? The answer became: The quality that was > referred to in Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance can be subdivided > into Dynamic Quality and static quality. Dynamic Quality is a stream of > quality events going on and on forever, always at the cutting edge of the > present. But in the wake of this cutting edge are static patterns of value. > These are memories, customs and patterns of nature. The reason there is a > difference between individual evaluations of quality is that although Dynamic > Quality is a constant, these static patterns are different for everyone > because each person has a different static pattern of life history. Both > the Dynamic Quality and the static patterns influence his final judgment. > That is why there is some uniformity among individual value judgments but not > complete uniformity." > > [Ron] > The conflict here is in regard to meaning, for example Marsha states that > "for > understanding" and I'm going to take this to mean ALL understanding since > this is how she applies the many truths statement to mean each individuals > "truth" > "there is a dependancy on the individuals static pattern life history." > Dave B accuses her of the philosophic stance of "subjectivism" a > philosophical > tenet that accords primacy to subjective experience as fundamental of all > measure > and law. This certainly seems to be how Marsha is interpreting what Pirsig > states, > but what is being neglected are social level patterns of quality in this > statement and > what is also being neglected is Bob's closing statement that there is some > uniformity > but not complete uniformity of value judgements. > The value judgements which are uniform include the calls for clarity and > precision > in communication, include the concepts of truth and beauty for simply no other > reason than the meaningful exchange of ideas within a social structure of > value. > > When Marsha claims that her reading of Pirsig supports her contention that > all calls for meaning, clarity and precision are totally dependant on the > individual > life history she excludes social patterns of value to suit her own rhetorical > needs to win the arguement with Dave B. She is also understood to be > supporting > subjectivism in this manner according the primacy of subjective(individual) > experience which seems to only serve to benefit and defend Marshas ability > to say whatever she wants without any criticism as to the clarity of what she > says > and means. > > The charge of Solopsism may apply since Marsha is asserting the primacy of > individual experience in her explanations and neglecting social level patterns > of value (uniformity of value) Descates "I think therefore I am" which Pirsig > corrects with "17th century culture exists therefore I think therefore I am" > But Marsha can deny this charge if not soley on the merit that she claims > the individual (self) does not exist. One has to ask what then is she hanging > all her explanations that accord the primacy of the individual on if that > primacy > is held not to exist? > Again, this does not explain anything, better or otherwise. > > This explanation is begining to show all the trappings of a religous > explanation > where any contradiction in meaning and unsound reasoning is explained away > as the incomprehension of the ineffiable. "It doesent make sense because > MoQ is beyond reason" replace MoQ with God and the bible and you get > pretty much the same thing. > The irony is that it is these sorts of people that respond the harshest to any > religous contributers here when their own brand of explanation is on par. > > Its the snotty self rightous postmodernist temperment in which they > delve out their own criticisms which is disturbing ala they can dish it > out but they can't take it. > > It's about time this matter was addressed, I think most of the conflicts > I have had with other contributers revolves around this very subject. > > thnx > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org/md/archives.html ___ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
