Marsha to Andre and dmb:
The static world is not an illusion, the static world is like an
illusion. ...All conceptions and mental images that "atomic bombs that
dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki" might signify are a counterfeit of
the actual event. It is in this understanding that I say it is "like" an
illusion.
Andre:
Ah...we have another word from Lucy's vocabulary and thereby employed
tactics: 'counterfeit'.
Let's have a look: Counterfeit:1: 'made in imitation; not genuine,
forged 2: pretended, imitate fraudulently...simulate. (This is from the
Oxford Concise.)
She further writes that:It is in this understanding that I say it is
"like" an illusion.
This makes it only worse in my book. This is gravely worse than the
genuine Buddhist interpretation and shows how Marsha doesn't understand
either position... and is actually devoid of any intellectual
understanding at all. It is at the most social but more grounded in the
biological sphere. But she doesn't understand that either.
What Marsha in effect is saying, in answer to the question Pirsig asked
of his professor in Benares, is the same as the professor's: The
professor smiled and said 'Yes'.
Marsha says 'Yes, it is an imitation, pretended, not genuine,
forged...fraudulent.
Andre:
I'll repeat what I said before (which was one of your defining
characteristics of something being 'real' or not):
Because you did not have 'direct experience' of it? Bloody hell! Those
that DID directly experience it are DEAD, Lucy. In your warped and
bigoted way of reasoning those few that survived came close but did not
have the same direct experience did they? So what do they know eh? And
what did they leave behind for us?What do they know anyway?
What you are in effect saying to the survivors of all of the atrocities
mentioned before is that it is all an imitation. It's all pretended. It
is not genuine...it is forged...fraudulent.
I am absolutely sick to the stomach of this pattern of argumentation. We
are asked to sit at a table and discuss Pirsig's MoQ. Instead I am
confronted with someone who sees all the atrocities committed in the
twentieth century (and they continue to this day) as an imitation,
pretended, not genuine, forged...fraudulent.
The undermining of the MoQ by this particular set of patterns
continuously for the past seven or eight year or so is still apparently
tolerated. I have always had difficulty accepting immoral acts whenever
I experienced them (even at a very young age when I did not quite
understand what was going on). But there you have it. Following your
intuition is not always wrong.
I will un-subscribe and wish genuine MoQ'ers well.
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