Ron, Wow. This blew me away. I've had a bone to pick of my own, over the issue of "graven images" and to hear your expounding of Plato's perspective on the matter, in a way I've never heard before... Well, it's just a blessing.
Thank you, John On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 1:41 PM, Ron Kulp <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Any had said: > > >> The only things not included within the realm of the four static > patterns (and this is the important, critical point that Plato got wrong) > are the (essentially) formless Beauty, Love, and the Good. They can only > be understood by metaphor in the form of poetry, fiction and music. > >> > >> (In fact as a young women, you might be interested to know that not > only would Plato have banned all poets from his ideal Republic but also all > women, > >> all musical instruments, most modern technology and, for some weird > reason, > >> sounds of water too.) > >> > >> http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/plato-aesthetics/ > > Ron: > I have been reading and digesting > The Stanford Essay on Plato -aesthetics. > Interesting enough, to be sure, it > More clearly states after a more careful reading, that Plato was > Banning imitation in poetry and > Art. The mimicking of women > And musical instruments and such > In artistic performance. > It recalled the painting " this is not > A pipe". > "Socrates returns to his analogy between poetry and painting. If you are > partly taken in by a painting's tricked-up table apparition but you partly > spot the falseness of it, which part of you does which? The soul's rational > impulse must be the part that knows the painting is not a real table. But > Book 4 established one fundamental principle: When the soul inclines in > more than one direction, this conflict represents the work of more than one > faculty or part of the soul (436b). So being taken in by an optical or > artistic illusion must be the activity of some part of the soul distinct > from reason." > > It sounds to me that what Plato > Really wants to ban is reification. > He wants to ban stereotypes, > Characitures . He thinks art and > Poetry (and the performance) > Is best when it deals with the > Empirical. > Imitation, like worshiping graven > Images, encapsulates, and renders > Static the now of experience. > > "Notice especially the terminology in Book 9. The tyrant is “at the third > remove” from the oligarch, his pleasure “a third-place idol [tritôi > eidôlôi]” compared to the truth,alêtheia, of the oligarchic soul's pleasure > (587c). The oligarch's soul in turn stands third below the “kingly man [tou > basilikou]” (587d). Only ten pages later Book 10 will call the imitator > “third from the king [basileôs] and from the truth [alêtheias]” (597e; cf. > 602c). The language in Book 10 brings Book 9's equation of base pleasures > with illusory ones into its attack on art. If Book 10 can show that an art > form fosters interest in illusions it will have gone a long way toward > showing that the art form keeps company with irrational desires. > But Plato does not confine himself to reasoning by analogy from painting > to verse. He recognizes that analogies encourage lazy reasoning. So > Socrates proposes looking at imitative poetry on its own terms, not just as > a painting made of words (603b–c). He exerts himself to show that poetry > presents false representations of virtue, often drawn from popular opinion > about morality (Moss 2007, 437), and that because of their falseness those > images nourish irrational motives until all but the finest souls in the > audience lose control over themselves." > > The kind of art Plato wants to ban In his republic seem to be arts like > Commercials, tv shows (reality tv Especially) advertising, propaganda > > And the unrealistic imitative images > > Of female beauty that objectify > > Women as sex symbols. > > Also, it seems, that religion would > > Also be banned: > > "Imitation works an effect worse than ignorance, not merely teaching > nothing but engendering a positive perverted preference for ignorance over > knowledge. Plato often observes that the ignorant prefer to remain as they > are." > > What seems to be the most > > Interesting topic where poetry > > And art is concerned is divine > > Inspiration (dynamic quality) > > Concerning the art of persuasion. > > The topic of the Phaedrus. > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org/md/archives.html > -- "finite players play within boundaries. Infinite players play *with* boundaries." Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
