> On Aug 21, 2014, at 4:41 PM, Ron Kulp <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
> Correction
> Ant had said:
>
>>> The only things not included within the realm of the four static patterns
>>> (and this is the important, critical point that Plato got wrong) are the
>>> (essentially) formless Beauty, Love, and the Good. They can only be
>>> understood by metaphor in the form of poetry, fiction and music.
>>>
>>> (In fact as a young women, you might be interested to know that not only
>>> would Plato have banned all poets from his ideal Republic but also all
>>> women,
>>> all musical instruments, most modern technology and, for some weird reason,
>>> sounds of water too.)
>>>
>>> http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/plato-aesthetics/
>
> Ron:
> I have been reading and digesting
> The Stanford Essay on Plato -aesthetics.
> Interesting enough, to be sure, it
> More clearly states after a more careful reading, that Plato was
> Banning imitation in poetry and
> Art. The mimicking of women
> And musical instruments and such
> In artistic performance.
> It recalled the painting " this is not
> A pipe".
> "Socrates returns to his analogy between poetry and painting. If you are
> partly taken in by a painting's tricked-up table apparition but you partly
> spot the falseness of it, which part of you does which? The soul's rational
> impulse must be the part that knows the painting is not a real table. But
> Book 4 established one fundamental principle: When the soul inclines in more
> than one direction, this conflict represents the work of more than one
> faculty or part of the soul (436b). So being taken in by an optical or
> artistic illusion must be the activity of some part of the soul distinct from
> reason."
>
> It sounds to me that what Plato
> Really wants to ban is reification.
> He wants to ban stereotypes,
> Characitures . He thinks art and
> Poetry (and the performance)
> Is best when it deals with the
> Empirical.
> Imitation, like worshiping graven
> Images, encapsulates, and renders
> Static the now of experience.
>
> "Notice especially the terminology in Book 9. The tyrant is “at the third
> remove” from the oligarch, his pleasure “a third-place idol [tritôi eidôlôi]”
> compared to the truth,alêtheia, of the oligarchic soul's pleasure (587c). The
> oligarch's soul in turn stands third below the “kingly man [tou basilikou]”
> (587d). Only ten pages later Book 10 will call the imitator “third from the
> king [basileôs] and from the truth [alêtheias]” (597e; cf. 602c). The
> language in Book 10 brings Book 9's equation of base pleasures with illusory
> ones into its attack on art. If Book 10 can show that an art form fosters
> interest in illusions it will have gone a long way toward showing that the
> art form keeps company with irrational desires.
> But Plato does not confine himself to reasoning by analogy from painting to
> verse. He recognizes that analogies encourage lazy reasoning. So Socrates
> proposes looking at imitative poetry on its own terms, not just as a painting
> made of words (603b–c). He exerts himself to show that poetry presents false
> representations of virtue, often drawn from popular opinion about morality
> (Moss 2007, 437), and that because of their falseness those images nourish
> irrational motives until all but the finest souls in the audience lose
> control over themselves."
>
> The kind of art Plato wants to ban In his republic seem to be arts like
> Commercials, tv shows (reality tv Especially) advertising, propaganda
>
> And the unrealistic imitative images
>
> Of female beauty that objectify
>
> Women as sex symbols.
>
> Also, it seems, that religion would
>
> Also be banned:
>
> "Imitation works an effect worse than ignorance, not merely teaching nothing
> but engendering a positive perverted preference for ignorance over knowledge.
> Plato often observes that the ignorant prefer to remain as they are."
>
> What seems to be the most
>
> Interesting topic where poetry
>
> And art is concerned is divine
>
> Inspiration (dynamic quality)
>
> Concerning the art of persuasion.
>
> The topic of the Phaedrus.
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