A possible further-back relation could be the Aristotelian, believe it
or not, tradition through Aquinas, in which the person's wholeness is
primary, and "body" and "mind" are analytic products.
In Zen:
https://books.google.com/books?id=5Gg8CgAAQBAJ&pg=PT78&lpg=PT78&dq=%22how+could+they+have+flown+away?%22&source=bl&ots=R_UqQiqYcG&sig=8deB1aZIQt7pZNn2eavIT32-STQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CB0Q6AEwAGoVChMI1Jf-ltf5yAIViY8-Ch2T4wfp#v=onepage&q=%22how%20could%20they%20have%20flown%20away%3F%22&f=false
MRB
On 11/5/2015 8:20 AM, david wrote:
Personally, I spent a lot less time at moq_discuss just because there are other
options out there on the internet for people interested in philosophy. Pirsig
is still my main pivot point but I find it more satisfying to discuss his ideas
in a wider context with people of various backgrounds and interests. Not to be
a snob about it - but it's much more fun when the discussion group is populated
by folks with some kind of philosophical education. Otherwise, even very
intelligent people will have no idea what you're talking about. Lately, I've
been talking about theories of mind, the hard problem of consciousness and
things like that.
There is a school of thought that fits with Pirsig's philosophy called "embodied mind" or
"embodied cognition" and it addresses some of the questions being posed here in the last few days.
Neutral monism, for example, is a good way to think about the MOQ. The embodied mind theories are such that
the mind-body problem just sort of evaporates or rather is exposed as a fake problem. The authors of
"Philosophy in the Flesh: The Embodied Mind and Its Challenge to Western Thought" are particularly
helpful because they (especially Mark Johnson) make use of John Dewey and William James as their
philosophical framework. Pirsig explicitly identifies the MOQ with James's work and with mainstream American
Pragmatism - and I've been convinced that there are no important differences between Dewey, James, and
Pirsig. It's really quite thrilling. Here is a short paper by Mark Johnson and it's full of ideas that could
be lifted right from Pirsig's books.
http://www.american-philosophy.org/archives/past_conference_programs/pc2001/Discussion%20papers/Feeling_William_James_But.htm
________________________________________
From: Moq_Discuss <[email protected]> on behalf of Adrie
Kintziger <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 4, 2015 11:02 AM
To: [email protected]
Cc: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [MD] Two Minds
in the moq, idea's come first;... wich provides a good workaround for the
mind body problem
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind%E2%80%93body_problem
2015-11-04 18:46 GMT+01:00 Austin Fatheree <[email protected]>:
If things have been too quiet, let me throw some things out there for
discussion. I know I'm late to the party so if any of this has been
discussed before, feel free to point me in the right direction.
A thing occurred to me while reading Lila that is really a technical point,
albeit I think an important one, that doesn't really change any conclusions
that Pirsig makes, but that may be worth discussion.
Pirsig indicates that the Intellectual level emerges from the social
level(and by definition emerged in time after the social level) and thus
has moral authority over it.
I think this is technically wrong, although the technical reasons don't end
up changing many of the conclusions.
I think that both the social and intellectual levels emerged out of the
biological level. The intellectual did emerge after the social and still
holds moral authority over it and still has access to it, but it is more
correct to say that it emerged from biology.
I think this because it more adequately fits what we see in reality. Our
brains have many parts and recent Psychological analysis shows that it also
has multiple modes. Kahneman puts this forward in Thinking Fast and Slow (
http://amzn.to/1MzA82R ). Here we see System 1 (Quick Judgments) and
System 2 (Methodical Thought) being driven by various parts of the brain
and assimilated in the neocortex. The theory is that the more reptilian
brain evolved first, and the neocortex evolved with access to these other
parts of the brain to add prediction and better fitness. System 1 is the
social level brain and System 2 is the intellectual part. System 1 just is
and just does. System 2 can override and use simulated expectations as a
basis.
Ultimately though, both evolutions were biological responses to fitness.
Both emerged out of biology and out of what the biological level values
(fitness).
I think this is important because at one point Pirsig says that a level
only has access to the level below it. I think the Intellectual level does
have access to the biological(although it has many built in biases because
System 1 was around with it developed). System 2 may even be completely
reliant on System 1 existing, but it can still reach down through it and
act at the biological level.
Unfortunately the fallout from this is that distinguishing that the
intellectual level should have moral authority over the social level
becomes even murkier. Unfortunately this also seems be an accurate map of
the territory. I’m from Houston and yesterday we voted down our Houston
Equal Rights Ordinance(HERO) because we have a significant portion of our
population that has no desire to operate at an intellectual level. It is
all still way to social here in the South and social means that that guy
over there is going to get one over on me if I don’t take it for myself.
Boo us.
--
Austin
twitter: @afat http://twitter.com/afat
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