Austin, Big storm coming next week to Northern California, which means I'll have time to go into this with you more fully then. Right now, I've got a house to finish roofing but let me just say I agree with your point about the relationship between social and intellectual patterning needing a thorough revisement.
The most useful contribution I've gotten from this group in a long time, was Dan pointing out that the MoQ is a map and shouldn't be taken as the territory. We'll discuss next week, which parts of the map ought to be revised to match that actual territory. John On 11/4/15, Austin Fatheree <[email protected]> wrote: > If things have been too quiet, let me throw some things out there for > discussion. I know I'm late to the party so if any of this has been > discussed before, feel free to point me in the right direction. > > A thing occurred to me while reading Lila that is really a technical point, > albeit I think an important one, that doesn't really change any conclusions > that Pirsig makes, but that may be worth discussion. > > Pirsig indicates that the Intellectual level emerges from the social > level(and by definition emerged in time after the social level) and thus > has moral authority over it. > > I think this is technically wrong, although the technical reasons don't end > up changing many of the conclusions. > > I think that both the social and intellectual levels emerged out of the > biological level. The intellectual did emerge after the social and still > holds moral authority over it and still has access to it, but it is more > correct to say that it emerged from biology. > > I think this because it more adequately fits what we see in reality. Our > brains have many parts and recent Psychological analysis shows that it also > has multiple modes. Kahneman puts this forward in Thinking Fast and Slow ( > http://amzn.to/1MzA82R ). Here we see System 1 (Quick Judgments) and > System 2 (Methodical Thought) being driven by various parts of the brain > and assimilated in the neocortex. The theory is that the more reptilian > brain evolved first, and the neocortex evolved with access to these other > parts of the brain to add prediction and better fitness. System 1 is the > social level brain and System 2 is the intellectual part. System 1 just is > and just does. System 2 can override and use simulated expectations as a > basis. > > Ultimately though, both evolutions were biological responses to fitness. > Both emerged out of biology and out of what the biological level values > (fitness). > > I think this is important because at one point Pirsig says that a level > only has access to the level below it. I think the Intellectual level does > have access to the biological(although it has many built in biases because > System 1 was around with it developed). System 2 may even be completely > reliant on System 1 existing, but it can still reach down through it and > act at the biological level. > > Unfortunately the fallout from this is that distinguishing that the > intellectual level should have moral authority over the social level > becomes even murkier. Unfortunately this also seems be an accurate map of > the territory. I’m from Houston and yesterday we voted down our Houston > Equal Rights Ordinance(HERO) because we have a significant portion of our > population that has no desire to operate at an intellectual level. It is > all still way to social here in the South and social means that that guy > over there is going to get one over on me if I don’t take it for myself. > Boo us. > > -- > Austin > twitter: @afat http://twitter.com/afat > ᐧ > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org/md/archives.html > -- "finite players play within boundaries. Infinite players play *with* boundaries." Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
