[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
>So to take Pirsig's example of the Zuni misfit... how was he
>harming anyone? What if an individual or group of individuals does not >harm anyone
>but threatens society?
Bob replies:
One of the things I wish Pirsig had discussed in detail is the role of
'government' in societies, both modern day and throughout history.
Mostly he zipped right by it. If he ever writes another book, I hope he
addresses this issue in detail.
As for the Zuni misfit, I wish he had discussed it in more detail. When
he writes 'peering though a window from outside,' what does that mean?
Was he trespassing? Was he a 'Peeping Tom' doing it for sexual reasons?
And getting drunk? What does this mean? 'Drunk and disorderly' in
public?
In every society that I'm familiar with these are crimes...minor ones to
be sure, misdemeanors (literally 'bad behavior.') In this sense I
suppose the Zuni misfit would have been a minor criminal in almost every
society.
As for the 'war priests'...who where they? The 'government' of the Zuni?
Where they elected? Were they dictators? Pirsig never addresses these
issues.
And apparently the 'war priests' hung him by his thumbs because he
boasted they could not kill him. If this is true the Zuni 'government'
had no business doing that. He was harming no one. They were violating
his 'freedom from speech' at the very least. And because they thought he
was a witch? Well, that's 'freedom of religion.' Which is exactly my
point. He was being oppressed by the Zuni 'State.' It was they the
misfit went after. Not the 'society' but the State. And they tortured
him simply because of free speech and religion. Exactly my point! A
State was violating his life, liberty and property (your body is your
property) simply because he was exercising his 'right of free speech'and
because of his religion!
He wasn't a threat to Zuni society....he was a threat to the Zuni State.
It would be the same thing if I told the U.S. government, 'I'm a witch,
try and kill me' and then they hung me by my thumbs. I'm in the right;
they're in the wrong. I'm harming no one, merely expressing the liberty
to say as I please, and have whatever religion I want.
Another thing to consider it that they were 'war priests.' Apparently
the Zuni State was in control of religion--absolutely a no no! The Zuni
'war priests' were in direct violation of the First Amendment of the
U.S. Constitution--violating religion and violating speech. Freedom from
the State. That's what the Zuni misfit was fighting for, even if he
didn't know it....freedom of speech and religion from State control.
When the misfit called the government troops he was absolutely right to
do so. (Another thing to consider is the U.S. State conquered the
Indians...one tribe conquering another.)
Now, how can an individual or group of individuals threaten society
without harming anyone? There is no such 'thing' as society. A 'society'
is a group of individuals with shared values. There are many 'societies'
within one big 'society.' The only way they can form is without
interference by the State. You can't harm society without harming
individuals.
> Distinguishing between individuals and society seems to be a big >problem in this
>discussion. That is not meant as a put-down; I have >he same difficulty. When does
>someone threaten society but not >individuals?
Again, there is no such thing as a society apart from individuals. You
can't harm 'society' unless you harm individuals.
>What harms society without harming any other level? (not rhetorical >questions!)
I don't understand the question. How about a concrete example?
>
> Seems to me individual freedoms are at stake here, but what else is at stake? What
>are individual freedoms worth giving up for? Anything? Does any government have the
>right to limit freedoms for the sake of society?
You have the absolute right to do as you please as long as you do not
injure or harm anyone, or their property, or defraud. WHO is to decide
what freedoms to give up for the sake of society? Is the 'government' to
say, "Even though you are not harming anyone your values are wrong.
Therefore we are going to pass a law to force our values on you. We do
this because we are smarter, wiser, and more moral than you are...If you
do not follow it we will imprison or kill you," Why pass a law if no one
is being harmed?
Bob
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