David and squad, David says: The debate on the bombing of Japan was equally daft. One doesn't even need the MOQ to see that the indiscriminate destruction of an entire civilian population is immoral. Its against international law and represents a return to barbarism. Japan was all but finished by then. It was just a matter of time. We killed hundreds of thousands of Japanese men, women and children for the sake of intimidating Uncle Joe. HE was looking East after Germany was finally broken and probably would have invaded Japan if not for the nukes. So its not just a matter of the number of lives saved or destroyed so much as an attack on innocent non-combatants. Clearly Hilter and Stalin had no qualms about killing civilians and engaging in "total war", but they were both twisted monsters, no? We stooped to their level at Dresden and Hiroshima. Its kind of ironic that this forum is dedicated to the discussion of a deeply moral philosophy should attract people who can justify such mass murder. All I can do is hope such a mind never has the authority to act on such child-like thinking. Please forgive me for "scolding" you in such an arrogant manner, but I was very disappointed and disgusted, downright angry in fact, to read such views here. Someone PLEASE tell me I'm not the only one outraged by the stupidity! Its only because I care about my fellow philosophers. Honest. Clark says: I am pleased that the above paragraph springs from a deep caring about your fellow philosophers. It is with a deep caring about the lessons of history that I have to tell you that you are full of it. I know that if you had asked anyone in the US or England or Sydney or the Elephant and Castle in Eyke or France or just about any other combatant country that you would have found very few who would admit to being an innocent, disinterested bystander. The whole world was involved in the war, including the non-combatants. I did not have a chance to ask the citizens of Japan or Germany about their views but I think you would have gotten a similar answer. Do you think that if our side had had the capability of launching buzz bombs, as did Germany, that we would not have done it? No one in that war was an innocent civilian. Producing material for the war was just as necessary as using it and most people were involved one way or the other. Early in the war we had prisoners taken in the Phillipines and we also had the results of the Japanese invasion of China as well as Most of New Guinea and various islands in the South Pacific. We knew that the Japanese had not heard of Pirsig. In addition I imagine the Australians were not too happy looking down the barrel of a Japanese gun. As I said, after the retaking of the Phillipines we were faced with the prospect of invading Japan. It is true that their fleet had been badly damaged but their ground capability was not in bad shape. They could, and would, have put up a fierce fight. The "experts" had some horrendous figures on the number of casualties that would result from an invasion and no one had any reason to disbelieve them. This was not on my mind at the time but, as you said, in retrospect it would not have been wise to allow enough time for the Russians to enter the fray. Can you imagine what the scenario would have been if Russia had gained a firm foothold in Japan and probably China. It was probably fortunate for the world that since the time for the atomic bomb had come that we were the first ones to deploy it. I imagine it kept the wolves at bay and gave us a freer hand in Japan. Also, can you imagine what the state of the world would be now if the Russians were the only ones to have the atomic bomb? We at least have overwhelming force at hand to keep the hotheads cooled off. I don't know what kind of revisionist history you have been reading but if you think that Japan was on the brink of capitulation you are way off base. An invasion of Japan would have been the bloodiest and toughest of the war with no doubt many more thousands of both military and civilians killed in Japan as well as horrendus losses among our military. If you think that the decision to drop the bomb was taken on the basis of keeping the Russians out of the Pacific war then you are even more misinformed than I originally thought. It was taken with the thought of keeping the casualty figures down to a minimum and that is just what it did. The fact that it kept ours down to practically zero was a plus. Try to imagine yourself as the General of the armies in that situation. On another tack, I have been reading your recent posts and I find: think Mary is quite correct to say that Pirsig was only refering the higher levels in saying that only living beings can respond to DQ. That is to say, only living beings can respond to DQ AT THE HIGHER LEVELS. The quotes Roger provided have Pirsig saying that subatomic forces "select" certain options. That is how static patterns respond to DQ AT THE INORGANIC LEVEL. This celection process, I think, implies that the entire universe is "alive" and "intelligent" even at the lowest level. Further, I think that admiting that even inorganic patterns "experience" DQ in their own way saves the whole MOQ from any kind of Solipsism. And: There has been a question as to how we can originate out of DQ and at the same time the thrust of all evolution is a return to DQ. But if one imagines the MOQ as the playful dance between DQ and SQ, I think that question becomes meaningless. It is not so much about the beginning and the end so much as a constant back and forth, a dialogue of creation and sacrifice. Clark says: Looks like you are getting there. Read back through the posts for two or three months and you will get more information along these lines. To my mind it would be more clear if you would drop the mysticism. It is not necessary. Pirsig's MoQ is very clear and meaningful without it and it just clouds the issue. With great philosophical respect. Ken MOQ Online Homepage - http://www.moq.org Mail Archive - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/ Unsubscribe - http://www.moq.org/md/index.html MD Queries - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
