JOHN: So while most experience for most organisms includes positive or negative value, and without this value nothing will be experienced, in human beings with a capacity for language and logic there appear to be words and ideas which are experiencable but function to facilitate other processes and are themselves value free. Avid: No such thing as value free process. Can you think of one? Anything I can do, I can do better [value]. In MoQ the value is not a property of the subject [as in SOM], it is a property of the whole situation. And if we face a cultural level activity [as in writing this e letter], so it is part of the value of the situation I'm experiencing. This is a significant break from SOM. What "other processes " do you have in mind [forgive me for the SOM language]? ROGER: Huh? Their function shows their value. Pirsig never stated that only one type of value pattern is real. They are all real. Avid: As for action, in the social and cultural layers, this is how we experience the bi-directional interface between the agent and the experienced situation [known as reality]. Like Darwin's "starting from the middle", I have no reason to think otherwise of different layers [that there is an active agent that interacts with reality. This is not a thing I know but a thing I prefer to assume [the assumption of A DIFFERENT mechanism, will give me bigger problems, like the justification of such a difference. I was going to evolve this further in my model of a SPQ of circular logic, but the yelping of the SOM watchdogs became unbearable, but in my experience "the big loser" from the SOM> MoQ shift is not so much the Object, as the crumbling of the Subject to multiple exit points. It is true that RMP never stated this, but in order to test a quality of an SPQ an active agent is needed, and action is part of any SPQ pattern [thinking is action too]. On the other hand all RMP examples of SPQ where action oriented. Am I wrong? and don't forget to be gentle Avid icq 6598359 MOQ Online Homepage - http://www.moq.org Mail Archive - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/ Unsubscribe - http://www.moq.org/md/index.html MD Queries - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
