SUPER ROG DOES THE INCREDIBLE AND RESPONDS TO 10 POSTS IN ONE Below is commentary on Avid's various posts on John's Organismic MOQ. The new comments are labeled "NEW ROG", all else is cut and pasted. ROGER: The direct experience is DQ. And the experience creates the organism and the environment, not the other way around. Avid: DQ doesn't create as well. It is the most direct way to come across quality, mainly by surprise. Organisms are created by mutations, lucky guesses of the biological orders, and are tested [their quality] by the situation, in deleting the bad solutions. In any other level the action may be similar but the agent is different and the code is different too [so is the judgment of value of the effort], and it is done by the situation. NEW ROG: What does create then? I see evolution and creation as the process of sq latching from DQ. The advancement in complexity within the universe can be explained as the process of Quality. As for your 'surprise' comment, I don't know how to take it. You are not referencing DQ as 'surprise' are you? Are you saying that surprise is the experience of recognizing DQ and seeing through our veils (spq's)? JOHN: "Dynamic quality is the pre-intellectual cutting edge of reality." "Static quality ... always contains a component of memory." Pirsig saw this division into dynamic and static as fundamental to his metaphysics, yet it lacks clarity. In this polarity he seems to be addressing the question of how dynamic experiences of quality are preserved or integrated into the ongoing lives of organisms. ROGER: I agree with this last statement. Avid: I don't. Again John treats it as if there are Organisms [on the Biological level] that own the SQ. Big mistake. Whatever you call Organism is in my eyes [and in RMP eyes too] a Biological SPQ, meaning it is also a static pattern of quality in its entity. So how the transition is made DQ >SPQ is not of the organism but in any possible level, including the organism itself. I agree however that memory is a wrong choice of a word, because it suggests an owner. Code, or [theoretical code] could be a better one [even this is a value statement]. NEW ROG: What? I have no idea what you mean by your middle paragraph. Not a clue. Help please! ROGER: Again, DE is DQ. It is always dynamic. We have learned to filter and veil experience. To pattern it and use this trick to run on autopilot. This is basically a very effective and successful process. However, we can tend to overdo it. We begin to live in our patterns and filter out the greater World of experience. The song has already been experienced, so we don't need or want to attend to it any more. But as you mention, if you really listen, there is much Dynamic experience still to be discovered. Pirsig values sq, but always reminds us to go back to the source and to constantly seek new, superior experiences And patterns. Avid: Here we differ. IMO we are used to see the song as the same [in different experiences], because of SOM. Here we have no direct experience to quality but access to quality via a song, and IT HAS TO BE EXPERIENCED, the SPQ tells us how [audience code]. NEW ROG: Okay, I agree so far. AVID: As Gestalt creatures, we recognize SPQ and try to match between the experienced quality and various SPQ options. Only by default we land on DQ, trying to form a new SPQ with its remains. It is not a matter of veiling, it is a matter of recognition time, accessing the necessary code is vital for biological [and higher] survival. If we gaze in the beauty of the Atomic mushroom, it is too late. NEW ROG: DQ is the default of sq? DQ is not something we land on, IMO it is the stimulus which causes us to land. DQ is pure, preconceptualized experience. It is Whitehead's 'dim apprehension'. It is James' 'primal stuff'. Sq is our conceptual patterning of reality. It is Pirsig's 'boxcars ' and his four levels of patterns. As for atomic mushrooms, this reminds me of a cartoon. It was a drawing of a man walking out of the market with a bag of groceries and looking out over the skyline of the city and seeing it decimated in a huge nuclear mushroom cloud. The caption of the cartoon had the man saying..... "That's what I forgot to buy -- mushrooms!" ROGER: You confuse the pure DQ of an infant with the much broader range of experience of a mystic. The difference is in depth and breadth of consciousness. Avid: Again this proves that DQ is a default choice. An infant is not familiar with lots of SPQ, so he arrives to DQ far more quickly then an old experienced magician. NEW ROG: I say the difference is that the experienced one has woven his thousand veils. Mysticism is a process of removing the veils, but from a new position of experience that owes much of its height to sq. I see value in having the wisdom of a sage and the wonder of a newborn child Roger *****Forgive us Lord, for we have overposted.************************ MOQ Online Homepage - http://www.moq.org Mail Archive - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/ Unsubscribe - http://www.moq.org/md/index.html MD Queries - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
