Greetings,
You are right DMB, it was not a metaphor but an analogy and I was being stupid. You
take a long time
to make one pedantic point, get in as many insults as possible and revel in your first
opportunity
to get one over me, but you are right and I was completely wrong in my choice of word.
Congratulations, I'm sure your ego enjoys the 'victory.'
Richard wrote:
>So either we have freewill, or we have the illusion of freewill.... So I
>ask, even if we "just" have the illusion of freewill, what difference does
>it make? We still think we're choosing what to do. Somebody even suggested
>that morality isn't possible in world without freewill. But even if
>freewill is an illusion we still think we're making choices that are moral
>or immoral (so there's no real threat to morality and moral thinking that I
>can see). And besides... if there is only "an illusion of freewill", and no
>"actual freewill" then why not just call the illusion itself "freewill"???
>The consequences to us and our "choices" are the same either way. Right????
Practically I agree. It makes no difference whatsoever. The question raised is that of
whether free
will is anywhere other than in our heads (or other than an intellectual pattern in moq
language -
and I do realise that they are not entirely equivalent). The next question is whether
the concept of
free will has any referent outside of the intellectual level and I think that you
suggest it does
not. For the moq this is no problem as intellectual patterns are as real as any other
pattern, but I
would suggest that intellectual patterns which are backed up by non-intellectual level
empirical
evidence are more 'valid' than those which are not. For example, in a football game
yesterday my
team won. If I have the concept that my team won or alternatively the concept that my
team lost,
both are real in the sense of being intellectual patterns, but only one has a referent
in other
levels which point to it being the more accurate. Transpose that metap . . . damn . .
analogy to
free will and I question whether it can be shown that free will has a referent outside
the
intellectual level. That being the case it is in one sense real, but in another sense
it is a
chimera equivalent to the intellectual pattern that my football team lost yesterday.
Essentially the main question, and the main threat to human morality, is whether our
belief that we
are morally responsible and self-determining is equivalent to my belief that my team
won yesterday
or whether it is equivalent to believing that my team lost. If it is the latter than
it is not clear
that a non-subjective definition of moral responsibility can be constructed which has
any
resemblance to the accepted use of the phrase. Note that denying the subject does not
eliminate the
problem because subjects and objects still exist in the moq and the reduction of human
ethics to a
secondary metaphysical level does nothing to diminish the vital field of human ethics
which is all
about the relationships between different people and peoples together with their
environments.
Sorry Denis, I can't be bothered to either read or reply to your last posting. I'm
sure you
understand that there is no point.
Struan
P.S David Lind (and this is a genuine question). If I were to write that DMB is an
"intellectual
pygmy, thrashing around in a sea of his own ignorance," in one of my postings you
would consider
that to be flaming, right? However, if I preface that same remark with, "If I were to
say that . . .
" that would be fine? What if I were to say that, "in that case methinks you a total
prat," and of
course I would never do so, would I just have been offensive or would I have simply
been trying to
clarify a point of nettiquete? I only ask because you started off your posting
reviling one form
then ended the posting praising the other and I am confused as to why.
------------------------------------------
Struan Hellier
< mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
"All our best activities involve desires which are disciplined and
purified in the process."
(Iris Murdoch)
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