Seems to me the two are both dynamic, but ,moving in opposite directions. The peyote example moving towards an "awareness" (fopr lack of a better word) and the bar room scene moving away from "awareness" Of course, this could just be bias coming through on my part. Shalom David Lind [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jonathan B. Marder wrote: > Hi David B. and all, > I am carrying over this discusion from the MQ Focus list, since the > official topic of discussion there has now changed. I hope eveyone > considers this action appropriate. > For the benefit of Non-MF subscribers, let me give a very brief summary > of the points of contention (for the full discussion, please refer to > the archives): > > JONATHAN contrasted the "Tepee ceremony" under the influence of peyote, > with the bar-room "ceremony" (with which Lila opens) under the influence > of alcohol. A significant observation made was that Pirsig gives a much > more detailed and colourful description of the bar-room scene. > > DAVID B. countered that there was no real similarity - Phaedrus felt > comfortable and "connected" in the teepee, but shows remorse and > discomfort waking up next to Lila the morning after the bar-room scene. > > This is what I understood too. But my main question to Dave was why he > regarded the teepee scene as "mystical" and dynamic, but not the > bar-room. In particular, I noted how Pirsig describes the way the > Indians behave as completely "unceremonious", as if there was no ritual. > > DAVID B. > >Ritual is the static behavior, the same actions and words > >are repeated over and over, like a Catholic Mass. > > But surely, this repetition was exactly what the Indians were doing: > "Some time after midnight, after he had listened to the singing and > beating on the drums for hours and hours ..." > All that's missing is the lyrics, otherwise it's just as repetive as the > "DO A LITTLE DANCE . . .MAKE A LITTLE LOVE . . . GET DOWN TONIGHT. . ." > > JONATHAN > While the teepee 'ceremony' sounds harmless, humanity also invented > other ceremonies like burning witches and sacrificing children. > > DAVID B. > <<Frankly, this kind of thing makes me angry. Its dishonest and > conspicously irrelevant. Peyote ceremonies simply have nothing to do > with > torture or murder. It would be a case of guilt by association, which is > rarely valid, but you're the one who invented the association. Frankly, > I > think its ridiculous. And it angers me because its dishonest and it only > distracts us from genuine discussion of the issues.>> > > David, I don't think this is irrelevant at all. I made no condemnation > of the specific ceremony Pirsig described, but noted that there is often > a sinister side to what we call ritual. I don't know any details, but > the Montana Indians once had cousins to the south who some suspect were > engaged in rituals involving human sacrifice; my suspicion is that > peyote (or something similar) was a part of those ceremonies too. > > So finally, let me repeat my question to Dave: > Why does he consider the peyote-influenced teepee ceremony to be more > "mytical" and of higher quality/value than the numerous other events > Pirsig describes. > > Jonathan > > > > > > > MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org > Mail Archive - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/ > MD Queries - [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at: > http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html > MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org Mail Archive - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/ MD Queries - [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at: http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html
