SA,Platt,Arlo, Case,
Most of the emphisis of native belief rests strongly with connections to
the ancestors. The elderly are valued and revered and play an
Active role in the society. The deceased ancestors are every bit as
real. I see the connection Of Zen bhuddism and "Amerindian"
Culture is that they both value the idea that all things are sacred,
everything is holy so therefore there is no one thing which
Is holier than another or "no thing is holy", the "Indian giver" analogy
Pirsig was fascinated by how "Indian" culture treated the
S/O distinction which is quite differently. They really did'nt see
things as "mine" and "yours" they had a more communal sense of
belongings.
I think Lila was the Amerindian in the story, in spirit, she represented
a wild dynamic passionate element untameable, she relied on
her ancestor Her uncle and her deceased dog from the spirit world for
power..she was kinda a 20th century urban metaphor for the Indian
element "Intellect is slave to the passions". The "Brujo" in the story
if you will. If you read it in this frame it changes the
"floosy" perception of the character and you see Pirsig playing out the
static-dynamic flux between the characters of "the captin"
And "lila". The "Male/female" and you see the caution in the message
too.
-{x}
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Case
Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2007 12:03 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [MD] The Manito, You and the MoQ
SA, Platt, Arlo,
Guys, yesterday SA offered up a quote from Chapter 9 of Lila that I have
included at the end of this post. I believe the context was: how are
Native American religions similar to Zen? Clearly at some point Pirsig
seems to have thought they were. He says that Lila, or at least the book
that was to come after ZMM, was going to be about Indians. But it is
not. It is about a psycho-floosy. Maybe this is because the Indians are
not nearly as Zen as Pirsig would like them to be.
Certainly their quests for visions and their stress on NOW is Zen-like
but Native American traditions are Paleolithic in nature. Their cultures
were prehistoric and more like those of cave men than of moderns.
Perhaps in confronting this Pirsig decided to take a different path,
write a different book.
The manito that SA brings up illustrates the point. In the passage he
cites, Pirsig is trying to divert attention away from the overtly
theistic character of Native American religions. Take his quote from
Mandelbaum for example. (Mandlebaum's work is available in its entirety
online.) There is this from the beginning of the section on Religion and
Ceremonialism that Pirsig cites:
"The concept of a single all powerful Creator was dominant in Plains
Cree religious ideology and ceremonialism. Every prayer for supernatural
aid, every ritual addressed to divine powers, had to begin with an
invocation to kice manito-, Great Manito. All the phenomena of the
universe are considered to be under His control and everything was
created by His will. He was not personalized, nor given any definite
abode other than a general empyrean locale; He did not appear to men in
visions. Moreover, He was conceived as being too great, too awesome, to
be asked directly for His blessing."
- Mandelbaum, 1979
http://www.schoolnet.ca/autochtone/Plains_Cree/index-e.html
Not Yahweh, but close. There are Jews and Christians with this sort of
view of God. (In fact the Jews regarded the name of God to be too sacred
to be
spoken.) But then right before the very quote Pirsig cites there is
this:
"Unpleasant things, vicious animals, thorned bushes, diseases, arose
from matci-manito-, Evil Manito. His spirit powers were Cougar, Lynx,
Snake. They could grant certain abilities to a man, but exacted the life
of his wife or child in payment. Currently, the Evil Manito is modded
after the Christian devil and the whole concept of evil power may
possibly spring from missionary influence."
- Mandelbaum, 1979
Or perhaps Pirsig could have referenced his inspiration Verne
Dussenberry who had this to say in a discussion about the repeated use
of particular sweat lodges among the Rocky Boy Cree:
"Each time prayers are repeated in the structure, more power or muntua
is added. Muntua means something sacred - a great power. The Creator has
this power as do the spirits, although theirs is not as great as is
Ki-sei-men-to's. If one depends sufficiently upon the Creator, he can
secure much of this power for himself. Thus whether through
rationalization or firm belief, the Cree feel that constant use of the
same structure enhances muntua or power in that particular lodge."
- Dussenbery, The Montana Cree - 1962, published 1998.
Dussenberry does not suggest anything other than that the Cree are
theists.
In fact he claims that their religion has allowed them to survive as a
people into modern times.
So a book on Native Americans to bring out a philosophy that is alleged
to be "antitheistic" probably would not have worked. Even if you
consider Native American meditative practices. The goal of a vision
quest was not to seek oneness with the absolute. Rather it was to gain
spirit power from animistic spirits. Mandelbaum says this directly after
the quote SA provided from Lila:
"THE VISION QUEST
When a boy approached puberty, his father or grandfather might send him
out "to fast." Not all boys sought visions, but many did. The boy and
his father went to some lonely place, carrying with them cloths for
offerings and a filled pipe. The place chosen was often atop a high
hill, although any secluded spot might be chosen. Some boys entered a
bear's den, others would repair to a tree overhanging a river, some
stayed on a raft, a few remained on an unsaddled horse for the duration
of the quest. It was believed that a boy was more likely to be visited
by the horse spirit if he sought a vision on horseback and would have a
better chance of seeing the buffalo spirit if he pillowed his head on a
buffalo skull. But there was nothing inevitable about this and sometimes
a youth who slept on a buffalo skull or who remained in a bear's den
would know many spirit powers but not the buffalo nor the bear."
So to summarize: manito is not a term synonymous with Great Spirit. It
is one of the Great Spirit's attributes. In fact since it can be either
good or bad, gosh it sounds a lot like Luck or Chance, doesn't it? As
Mandelbaum put's it and Pirsig quotes it, "It connoted any phenomenon
that transcended the run of everyday experience."
Hmm, that sounds a lot to me like a meaningful coincidence. Maybe
manito, muntua, (the reference Platt provided on this term listed about
six alternate spellings) is Native American for synchronicity.
Case
--------------------------------------------
"American Indians are exceptionally skilled at holding to the
ever-changing center of things. That is the real reason they speak and
act without ornamentation. It violates their mystic unity. This moving
and acting and talking in accord with the Great Spirit and almost
nothing else has been the ancient center of their lives.
Their term manito is often used interchangeably with 'God' by whites who
usually think all religion is theistic and by Indians themselves who
don't make a big deal out of any verbal distinctions. But as David
Mandelbaum noted in his book The Plains Cree, 'The term manito primarily
referred to the Supreme Being but also had many other usages. It was
applied to manifestations of skill, fortune, blessing, luck, to any
wondrous occurrence. It connoted any phenomenon that transcended the run
of everyday experience.'
In other words, 'Dynamic Quality.'"
-Lila
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