I think we're forgetting the spirit of the times that had influence on Jefferson in particular , Jefferson traveled to Paris frequently When Jean-Jacques Rousseau's philosophy was popular with the stirrings of the french revolution. -[x]
-----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of ARLO J BENSINGER JR Sent: Sunday, January 28, 2007 11:14 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [MD] Dawkins a Materialist (is watching?) [Platt to Case] Here's actually what Pirsig said about Sidis and the influence of Indians: [Arlo] There is an interesting article on Sidis and Indians titled "Did the Indians Teach the Pilgrims Democracy?" (http://www.sidis.net/indian-pilgrim.htm) "In contrast to many other Indian cultures, among the dozen tribes that made up the local Penacook federation "there was nothing known which could remotely correspond to, or give any inkling of, any division of caste, class, or rank―probably the only completely democratic governments that ever existed in the history of the world." This was a true democracy and equality which might well prepare their country (now known as New England) for being, "at all times down to the present, the cradle of the spirit or liberty," wrote Sidis." ... "Mahony interprets Sidis "not as saying the white men deliberately copied the red, but as saying there was an absorption of the values around them. Sidis is showing that the American political system is a blend of two influences, the European. with an emphasis on hierarchy and property, and the New England Indian culture, which was one of great political insight and democratization." (This is a rather exact paraphrasing of Pirsig's discussion in LILA!) You can also view the entire book "Forgotten Founders: Benjamin Franklin, the Iroquois and the Rationale for the American Revolution" online (http://www.ratical.org/many_worlds/6Nations/FF.html) In addition to the Sidis bit, Pirsig also had this to say. "And yet, although Jefferson called this doctrine of social equality "self-evident," it is not at all self-evident. Scientific evidence and the social evidence of history indicate the opposite is self-evident. There is no "self-evidence" in European history that all men are created equal. There's no nation in Europe that doesn't trace its history to a time when it was "self-evident" that all men are created unequal. Jean Jacques Rousseau, who is sometimes given credit for this doctrine, certainly didn't get it from the history of Europe or Asia or Africa. He got it from the impact of the New World upon Europe and from contemplation of one particular kind of individual who lived in the New World, the person he called the "Noble Savage." The idea that "all men are created equal" is a gift to the world from the American Indian. Europeans who settled here only transmitted it as a doctrine that they sometimes followed and sometimes did not. The real source was someone for whom social equality was no mere doctrine, who had equality built into his bones. To him it was inconceivable that the world could be any other way. For him there was no other way of life. That's what Ten Bears was trying to tell them." (Pirsig, LILA). moq_discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ moq_discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
