<snip> [Case] Case is chemistry and physics and family and friends and work and play and all kinds of relationships. Ultimately they all reduce physics but with each level of reduction something is lost. What is lost is nifty new relationships acquired as each new level emerged from the ones below that.
Mark 02-02-07: How can X co-operate with Y if X = Y? [Case] What is that supposed to mean? Mark 03-02-07: Hi Case, "Case: 3c. One could also say biological life finds incredible ways to cooperate with inorganic laws." You see, i thought you were suggesting that bio life was inorganic laws? So it seemed you were saying inorganic laws cooperate with inorganic laws. <snip> [Case] No, I said name one. Any one will do. We are looking for a biologist who claims that biology violates any of the laws of thermodynamics. Mark 03-02-07: I don't know of one. You have insisted the Sun pumps our local - mistakenly thought of as a closed - system from outside with the energy required to drive biological evolution. In strict accordance with thermal entropy this is so. I don't know enough about the link between increasing complexity and thermal entropy to be able to prove biological life is doing something which challenges thermal entropy. What i think i should be reaching for is the suggestion that biological life rides on the tide of thermal entropy to do things thermal entropy at the inorganic level cannot do? (non-carbon based chemistry). Perhaps a good way of looking at this would be to suggest that biological life seizes entropy and directs it for it's own ends? The result of those ends is an ever more precise utilisation of entropy itself? This seems to accord with the moq's suggestion that biological patterns use the patterns of the lower level. But you have already pointed this out Case. I should have listened to you. Having said this, i don't feel you fully appreciate the significance of the way in which thermal entropy is being utilised? The very forms of utilisation demarcate a dividing line between the biological and the inorganic. Maybe the laws of thermodynamics will change to accommodate new ideas? [Case] Entropy is not a measurement of complexity it is a measurement of energy dissipating. Energy neither increases nor decreases it just changes form. I have mentioned several times how inappropriate Pirsig's tale of people left on rocks is. Now you cite it back to me? Chemicals do spontaneous produce life forms. That is what biology is all about. But it really would help if you had the faintest clue what you were talking about. Mark 03-02-07: I agree. <snip> [Case] I do not give it a lot of thought but apparently my early exposure to existentialism took hold. What you seem to propose as an alternative is hand wringing and wishful thinking. Mark 03-02-07: Oh dear. It's as bad as that is it? I apologise for going off of the deep end re: life does not obey entropy. That statement is rubbish as far as thermal entropy goes: life ruthlessly uses thermal entropy. Other forms of entropy have been advocated - with varying degrees of utility - and it's a contentious area. Those who won't entertain it simply deny any use at all - no argument necessary. I think there is something in new perspectives on entropy but i've been sloppy while accusing you of sloppy thinking. Sorry about that mate. Not sure if i'm short sighted or seeing over the horizon? Love, Mark moq_discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
