[Arlo] Amoral is defined as the absence of morals. By claiming DQ is amoral you are making as much a definition as when Pirsig claims DQ to be a "moral force". I suppose you could claim "mu", but that's different than a statement declaring amorality. Incidentally, even claiming it is "Dynamic" is a definition.
To be honest with you, Marsha, I myself am not fond of the word "moral", it is still very heavily laden with social-cultural connotations, and is often enacted as a power-word to gain control over others. I appreciate Pirsig was trying to rescue this word from its popular usage, and I do agree with him that the Quality is a moral force, but typically I prefer "value" or "betterness" (which is how this thread began) to refer to the Quality force. (I also think many see "morality" as the decree of pre-divined intent, that is by saying Quality created inorganic patterns of value because it was "moral" to do so often connotes an extra-natural being with a pre-intent to "create". I, of course, deny this, which is why I think we can have our cake and eat it to with regard to evolution (it is both moral and chance.... I think I just myself up for attacks from both Case AND Platt!)) [Case] Well you called it right from my end. First the moral order business. If you elect to call magnetism and gravity moral laws at the inorganic level I think it is a bit silly but previously was willing to say, no harm done. After all calling them such has the potential to inject a bit if rigor into thinking about social morality which is what I thought Pirsig was up to. Unfortunately all this does is introduce slop into the inorganic level. The same holds with "betterness" it only makes a hint of sense when you define in such a way as to render the term meaningless. Better is a relative term that only makes sense with respect to the person stating that this is better than that. There is not "betterness" out there in the future directing us this way or that way; waving to us and beckoning us forward. Betterness is in fact a wholly subjective term. You could I suppose claim that it is "better" to live than to die and therefore that which supports life is "better" that that which does not. Survival for species and cultures could then be regarded as the highest "Good". I kind of like that one but it does point to some kind of ultimate specialization with a master species whose survival is the highest "betterness." But the question is always begged, better for who? Better than what? At 01:26 PM 3/11/2007, you wrote: >At 11:27 AM 3/11/2007, Arlo wrote: > >[Marsha] > >I stated that Quality/DQ was amoral. I did not state that SPoVs > were amoral. > > > >[Arlo] > >How does morality derive from amorality? Let's back away from static > >social-level morals, and let's say "gravitation". If gravity is "inorganic > >moral value" (as Pirsig states), how does it derive from an amoral Quality? > >Arlo, > >Up until now our discussion has been focused totally on Quality/DQ, >not static quality. Why the switch? > >While I think Dynamic Quality is undefinable (Pirsig says so.). I >think the static quality, static patterns of value, on all four >levels are nothing but morality. > >If you're asking me how a static pattern of value comes into >existence. My answer is through an experience event. No >experience, no value. No value, no morality. > >Besides what is amorality? Amoral means without moral >quality. Amoral cannot be defined. It's like no-thing. > >Marsha > > > > >moq_discuss mailing list >Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >Archives: >http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ moq_discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ moq_discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
