> [Case] > That's a fair question but what do you mean by value-experience? Are you > including value judgments and sentience as part of the value-experience > package?
[Arlo] I'd say "sentience" is a complex mix of social and intellectual patterns, but is different from the experience of the amoeba not in "kind" but in "degree". [Case] And I would say that probably social patterns and certainly intellectual patterns required nervous systems to be manifest. [Case] An amoeba is a complex system that moves toward some optimum state of balance with its environment. [Arlo] Um, isn't "optimum" just another way to say "better" (or "best", perhaps)? What is different from my saying "an amoeba is a complex system that moves towards some better state with its environment"? [Case] Except that "better" implies awareness the difference and ability to choose, disappointment. Introducing these notions provides the illusion of empathy without any real improvement in understanding of the events. > [Case] > Viewed in terms of value-as-preference or aesthetic judgment, one could as > easily focus on vinegar's preference for an amoeba free environment. > Vinegar's tolerance for amoebae could also be measured by introducing > amoebae into various pH values of diluted vinegar see how much vinegar is > needed to realize an environment free of amoebae. [Arlo] Sure, why not? Although this is an inorganic pattern of value, and the amoeba's is a biological pattern of value. [Case] What do you see as the gain from such anthropomorphism? [Arlo] As I've said before, in addition to the broad MOQ strokes, I see a lot of inter-level gradation. An amoeba and a dolphin are both biological patterns, but even granting for the time being only biological value-experience to both, its clear to me the dolphin's is much more complex. So I'd say the amoeba responds exclusively on the biological level, but that doesn't mean there is no value-experience on this level. The amoeba certainly lacks a post-experiential symbolic repertoire, as is required for ascribing social and intellectual value. That is, "betterness" for the amoeba is experienced strictly within the biological and inorganic levels. [Case] This is a little weird but about what you expect when you get close to the edge but I would say an amoeba's responses are not purely biological in the same way that carbon bonding is not purely inorganic. In other words an amoeba is a biological system that responds in a purely electrochemical way. It is simply the level of complex chemical interactions that it involved in its behavior. [Case] No but I think "experience" required a nervous system sophisticated enough to encode memory. [Arlo] So the amoeba does not "experience" anything? I know its a strange alteration of common language to say an electron "experiences" inorganic value, but if that amoeba doesn't experience, what does it do? Now, representing that experience symbolically, that's the biggie. And that's where minds, brains, and all that come in. For me, anyway. [Case] This is where I like Whitehead's notion of occasions or events as the fundamental units of process. Experience implies memory and learning; the integrations of the past with the present. These terms carry tons of extra meaning with them that simply do not apply. If the intent is to alter our understand of the terms themselves perhaps it is better just to use value neutral terms to start with. moq_discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
