[Ham] I'm distressed and disappointed to see the Collective Intellect repeatedly idolized in this forum.
[Ron] It was an observation and something I bumped into reading Ken Wilbur, I thought it was interesting and thought kicking this around would be some fun, did'nt mean to upset you Ham. [Arlo] This topic has been kicked around many times before, and every time there are those who attempt to reduce it to an "either-or" argument, where one must choose between "The Great Lone Individual" and "The Inhuman Evil Collective". Don't go down that route, Ron. It's a strawman and it goes nowhere. Ham's idea of "individual proprietary awareness" is what one would have when left at birth on a deserted island. The "self", however, is not "individual proprietary awareness". The "self" is what emerges when that individual proprietary awareness entwines with what Pirsig calls "the collective consciousness of all communicating mankind". That is, the "self" and the "collective" are not separable pieces, they are co-constructs. One could not exist without the other. The attempt to imply there is a "war" between the two is utter nonsense. What distresses me is that that ridiculous phrase "shoulders of giants" keeps being trudged out of the dustbin of history where it belongs. If one wishes to adopt a truly appropriate metaphor, I'd suggest Micah and other Randians see themselves "69ing with giants". This captures the Yin/Yang orientation of involvement, and one realizes that those giants were also 69ing other giants, one ends up with a Dionysian Orgy of intertwinement. This is a much better metaphor for historical co-involvement and dialogicism than the woefully distorted "standing" metaphor. Its also more extensible, sure, but I'll leave that to your imagination. Is there "proprietary awareness"? Sure. Our bodily-kinesthetic experience ensures that. Is there a "collective consciousness"? Sure. Pirsig calls it also the "mythos". And the "self", a referential point, emerges as the two intertwine. In the end, this "individual v. collective" tripe is simply propagandistic bunk, if not shoddy and manipulative philosophy. There is no tension, no war, no epic battle. The "self" is not a point of either "individual proprietary awareness" nor "collective consciousness", it is a fusion, a synthesis, a happy, dialogic co-construct of the two. moq_discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
