-----Keith Gillette, Sun 2007-07-08 13:15---- ... see the blurring of church & state that is Faith Based Initiatives now defended by the conservative Supreme Court),
-----Platt, Sunday, July 08, 2007 16:44----- How does this prevent you from exercising your freedom of religion? How does this "establish" a religion? ----- Thankfully, it doesn't keep me from exercising my freedom of religion. Watchdog groups like Freedom From Religion do believe that it takes steps toward establishment. At the very least, it dismantles the firewall between church and state. Personally, I think it's dangerous and intrusive government meddling. -----Keith Gillette, Sun 2007-07-08 13:15---- trial by jury (suspension of habeas corpus, anyone?), -----Platt, Sunday, July 08, 2007 16:44----- You mean for terrorist prisoners who are non-citizens? ----- For non-citizen prisoners who may or may not be terrorists. While the Constitution is written to protect the citizens of the U.S., I believe in the universalization of human rights, in keeping with Jefferson: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights." That would be basic rights of due process for all humans, regardless of whether they happen to have been a citizen of a particular country. -----Platt, Sunday, July 08, 2007 16:44----- What law abridges your free speech? ----- Few, thankfully. However, we just saw a thread about the "conservative" Supreme Court's restrictive decision on free speech in schools. The "conservative" George Bush in 2001 effectively abridged the speech of medical professionals receiving federal funds from discussing abortion. The "conservative" Republican Congress in 1996 passed a law providing federal funding only for abstinence-only sex education. My point was that you can't claim this is a "conservative" cause. "Liberal" groups like the ACLU argue for free speech protections consistently. -----Platt, Sunday, July 08, 2007 16:44----- Do you think the liberal's call to reinstate the Fairness Doctrine an example of defending free speech? Conservatives supporting Pirsig's intellectual values include the Heritage Foundation and the Federalist Society. ----- What "liberals", specifically? I'll take your word for it that the Heritage Foundation & Federalist Society do support free speech. So does the ACLU. So does the Electronic Frontier Foundation. Does that make them "conservative"? If so, great. -----Keith Gillette, Sun 2007-07-08 13:15---- Really, though, this conservative/liberal dichotomy is all but useless to have a meaningful conversation. Let's talk some specifics. -----Platt, Sunday, July 08, 2007 16:44----- Questions above are specific and relate to the liberal/conservative outlooks. ----- Your "conservative" examples may self-identify in some way as "conservative", but other "conservatives" (specifically, social conservatives) do not hew to the same beliefs, as my examples show. My point is that this conservative/liberal dualism is so broad as to be nearly useless. Using it creates platypi. -----Keith Gillette, Sun 2007-07-08 13:15---- The majority of the Republicans in power appear to be Christian social conservatives who seek to legislate their religious values and thereby shred those Constitutional freedoms. -----Platt, Sunday, July 08, 2007 16:44----- Can you cite specific legislation offered by Christian social conservatives that shreds Constitutional freedoms? ----- Thankfully, nothing shredding Constitutional freedoms has passed. However, I'll point out that it's not the "liberal" Democrats who keep offering flag-burning amendments. Christian social conservatives also keep trying to overturn Roe v. Wade and recently had success in banning by law "intact dilation and extraction" abortions, which may not violate the Constitution, but certainly represents a restriction of freedom. -----Platt, Sunday, July 08, 2007 16:44----- Yes, examples of socialist programs -- defined as government interference in the private sector -- intended of course for the "public good." Medicare is rapidly going broke to be followed by Social Security, a Ponzi scheme. ----- No argument. -----Keith Gillette, Sun 2007-07-08 13:15---- The number of communists in the U.S. must be vanishingly small, however, as I don't hear anyone talking about turning over the means of production to the state. -----Platt, Sunday, July 08, 2007 16:44----- Not directly. But imposing regulations on business amounts to the same thing and is socialistic in nature. Example: recent proposed legislation requiring auto companies to manufacturer 35 mpg auto engines by 2018. ----- No, it doesn't amount to the same thing. Communism = state ownership of the means of production. Socialism is a mixed bag, as there are many varieties on a spectrum from communism to regulated capitalism. I love markets, but in order for them to work, they must be regulated. There has to be a social contract in place to ensure fair-play and there must be a way for the commons to be protected, as markets by themselves can do neither. I'm not a fan of the CAFE standards, either. I think they're heavy-handed. What we really need is a cap on CO2 emissions & a market in emissions credits like we do for SO2 already. That would protect the commons of the atmosphere with minimal government intervention. The upshot would be more cars with higher MPG or alternative energy sources. The market would decide, not the government. That would be great. But government still has to be there to protect the commons and to enforce the social contract. -----Platt, Sunday, July 08, 2007 16:44----- The one freedom not mentioned by Pirsig and overlooked by the Founding Fathers was the freedom to spend your own money as you see fit. ----- Like being able to say "no" as a tax-payer to the funneling of money to religious organizations, perhaps? However, that freedom would amount to anarchy, which would return us to the tyranny of the biological code of the "law of the jungle". moq_discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
