On 20 Jun 2001, at 13:30, Jaap Karssenberg wrote:
> to bo:
> I have nothing but the deepest respect for your analysis of my use of
> the word 'just'. The problem is that folowing the MOQ almost anything
> is 'created' by the observing mind, but I refuse to conclude that
> anything thus finds his place on the intellectuel level - why should
> the MOQ then need at the other three for ? ZAMM says Newton created
> gravity by defining it, I would say that what makes Newton one of the
> great scientists is, that he created a new pattern on(/in) the
> anorganic level ! Dynamical influence flows from the intellectual to
> the inorganic level.
Dear Jaap
Thanks for the opening line. I may sound the terror of these
moq.org. sites, but it's no use paying lip service to
philosophical/scientific meanderings when they so horribly violate
the MoQ. And it's the Intellectual level which is the problem - it has
been since day one of this discussion - and will continue to be so
until kingdom comes if not .....!!!! Please, I am not angry or gruff or
anything but must highlight the differences to come to grips with
them.
You say:
> The problem is that folowing the MOQ almost anything
> is 'created' by the observing mind, but I refuse to conclude that
> anything thus finds his place on the intellectuel level -
How can you utter this, unless your understanding of Quality's
Intellect is a true copy of Subject-Object's "observing mind"? And if
so the mind/matter gap enters the MoQ - now between Intellect
and the rest of the static sequence. And when I said that placing
time in the inorganic level don't save anything, I meant that in a
SOM context its easy to prove that EVERYTHING IS IN THE MIND
....this to show that the SOM is invalid and that the MoQ is
something totally different ....not that everything is in the mind (of
the SOM) Phew!
Remember in ZAMM (chap 19 p.231) when Phaedrus was
confronted with the two "horns": "Was his 'quality' objective or
subjective"?
We must not extrapolarize the MoQ backwards; at that time P.
was as much submerged in the SOM as his colleagues were and
the two alternatives seemed the only ones available. So from a
SOM point of view he rejected the first (left) horn:
> "Quality is not objective he said. It doesn't reside in the
> material world. And so he rejected the right horn. Quality is not
> subjective, he said. I doesn't reside merely in the mind. And
> finally: Phaedrus, following a path that to his knowledge had
> never been taken before in the history of Western thought, went
> straight between the horns of the subjectivity-objectivity
> dilemma and said that Quality is neither a part of mind, nor is it
> a part of matter. It is a THIRD entity which is independent of
> the two"
Please note:...It does not reside merely in the mind!!
And: ...a path that had never been taken before in the history of
Western thought..!! The MoQ is revolution and no-one can't expect
to grasp it before breakfast or lunch. Not that it is so complicated,
on the contrary, but simplicity poses an obstacle of it's own.
The above ZAMM passage is the climax, but before this he had
analyzed the two SOM alternatives and found the materialist
(objective) position illogical, and the idealist (subjective) untenable -
even if logical (if one accept SOM's premises it's easy to prove that
all is just mind.
So from this rudimentary new metaphysics of ZAMM (Quality-
Mind/Matter) Pirsig return 17 years later with his full-blown MoQ in
LILA. And it's a little frustrating when so many neglect this
Copernican shift that has taken place already in ZAMM and drones
on as if the Intellectual level of the MoQ is the old observing mind of
SOM.
All who participate here must sense something special about the
MoQ and I believe that goes for you too Jaap, and is why I try to
act the "guru" here.
Bo
PS
I forgot your question about "angst". That was Struan Hellier's
formulation, but I guess this Freudian (German) slant gives it some
special graver content than the English "fear" or "anxiety". I have
seen this used other places.
------- End of forwarded message -------
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