Jaap and Focussers
You spoke thus:
> First I have to say I disagree on time as being a intellectual
> pattern. I agree it is a relation/ordening-mechanism used by the
> intellect, but I suppose the fysical world to be the same without
> human minds ordening it. Saying space and time are just patterns of
> the intellectual level directly unleases the argument whether the
> world exists when nobody is there to percieve it, or not.
I am not sure that ...saying that space and time are intellectual
patterns DIRECTLY unleashes the argument whether the world
exists when nobody is there to perceive it, or not ....unless ....the
intellectual level is seen as the (observing) mind, and I'm afraid that
is the prevailing view.
Your "just" shows the difficulty of leaving SOM and the MoQ isn't
spared from trouble by by relegating time to the inorganic level.
>From the premises (that what's intellectual is "just") the "just"
suddenly becomes "everything", and the latter has the strongest
case. It's easy to prove that everything is in the mind (solipsism),
and how can the MoQ be an alternative to SOM if the mind-matter
chasm is introduced between Intellect and the rest of the levels?
> ................................ I posed that time might be of the biological
> level to push the discussion a little away from direct fysics, but I'm
> afraid we will stay there. So Brian, I agree that time --if anywhere
> in the level-structure-- goes in the inorganic level. I'm not sure
> that the order caused by the time-flow goes for all phenomenas of the
> inorganic level, but it sure goes for a part of it and for anything
> 'above' - so it should be somewhere in this level.
In ZAMM Pirsig says that there was no gravity until Newton created
the law, and I believe that time falls into the same category.
Humans have always had a sense of/for time - but also means to
escape it. The old myths included immortality, later - in Christianity
which was influenced by the Greek's division of body and soul -
only the latter was immortal, but after Intellect's take-over, time
became absolute (entropy) that nothing could escape.
And if anyone now asks: Is that to understand that the laws of
nature aren't true, I can only point to the MoQ which says that
existence is an unending ladder of improvement. Intellect's version
of experience is better than the social, which is better than the
biological ...etc, but nothing prevents it from being superseded by a
new rung of the quality ladder.
And this is what gives me such a thrill regarding the MoQ. Finally
the power of the Intellectual "brujo" is broken. Struan slighted me
by saying (something to the effect of) ..if the MoQ relieved me from
any existential "angst" I was welcome to it! OK, that was a good
description. It did! I was not the type to commit intellectual suicide
and revert to traditional religion, the solution was to go intellect ALL
THE WAY through. These days I am perfectly comfortable in an
intellect-dominated world, I read science magazines and speak
about both subjects and objects, but the bigger Quality picture is
the backdrop of it all.
Amen :-)
Bo
------- End of forwarded message -------
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