Hello MoQ Focus As the new topic is the follower of the old one and my participation was passive exclusively, my situation could be called a information disadvantage. An accident forced me to keep my legs at rest, so I tried to compensate my desire for motion in space (sports-5h/week) by a motion in mind (Its motion anyway!). What followed, was a period of maniac reading of hundreds and hundres of pages all over of quite a number of disciplines( mainly psychological stuff), including the rereading of ZAMM (the english version) and partly Thoreaus Walden. It's a pity, but I see myself unable to catch up with reading (thoroughly) the rest of Sept.s contribution plus the new ones. So I beg your pardon if I should repeat anyones ideas in the following. One idea, that vaguely appeared in the past, became a clearer shape in the last weeks. In the world of physics there exists a thing called the 'uncertainty principle'. It states, that we can never measure the position AND the velocity of an electron by means of light (which makes things visible to us). Basically that is because of the particle charakter of the light (light is both particle and wave). Measuring a particles velocity by shooting other particles against it looks a bit odd, isn't it? It is like the police controlling speed by crashing police cars in your car. It takes not an too great effort to imagine, that the object of measurement (your car) is very much influenced by the medium of measurement (the police car) and that the position and the velocity of the object of measurement isn't still the same after the measurement. Of course I simplified the casual dependencys for my own purpose, I must admit (I didn't say anything about the wave charakter of light and this makes things a bit more complicated) Stephen Hawking-A brief History of time-chapt: The Uncertainty Principle. The basically pattern, that becomes evident here seems to me that: once the observer/means of observation is almost of the same qualities as the object of observation, the statement of what the object does in that very moment is uncertain. Transferring this pattern to psychological science, it can be stated (really?) that as far as object of observation and subject of observation (the observer) are very much apart ( a human being observes an inorganic being (perhaps a stone)) his conclusions might be quite accurate, because the interactions of a stone is neglectible compared with interactions of a human being. Nobody would doubt this I suppose, but if we apply this hypothesis to the obsevation of a human being through a human being (a just-above-the-average-gifted psychologist observes a highly gifted convict in a prison, in effort to find out wether he is resocialised or something like that -- Who observes whom? :-) ). I call this the Psychological Uncertainty Principle.This is very near to pirsigs critisim of the SOM: Here are you and there is the motorcycle, separated from you in time and space for eternity. In consequence of that I see a great, a very great methodically problem in this month topic. If there is a level above the intellectual level, of which man is the only carrier ( I believe, correct me if I'm wrong), what is it, that is carrying out the fifth level? My only guess in the moment, it is the giant, this meta-structure of our national societys, of which Pirsig is talking about in lila (chapt 17). Well I say ' I guess...', not only because I'm really uncertain, meaning: I have no idea in the moment, but also apply the Psychological Uncertainty Principle to the development from the intellectual level to the next one, the fifth one. If there exist a fifth level, can man be able to recognize it? Only some of us? People like William James Sidis (who has really be called the next step of evolution)? The '�bermensch',(superman) Nietzsche is talking about in his Zarahustra? Bad, very bad reminiscences for me as german I might say (Although Nietzsches '�bermensch' had less to do with, what Hitler did about that!) IMO mans todays scientific achievements equals his biological limit (roughly- there will be developement, of course, but more in the sense of gradual developement). Basically not much more will happen, I believe. We would not be human beings, if not wanting more,the program, that makes us wanting things keep going on and on and on.......We want more!!! Maybe it is already there (The matrix), how could we feel its existence? Although I could go on like this for long, I leave it to you to wipe it out the 'Psychological Uncertainty Principle'. I suggest, we should get this clear, BEFORE talking about the fith level. Come on! So long, JoVo MOQ.org - http://www.moq.org
