This whole thread of who's the biggest bigot is a real drag. Speaking of drags, they water patrol pulled a relatively young man from what I could see from the Mississippi this afternoon, right near the locks, North of the Stone Arch. He was alive but I know little else. Anyone else know more? JHarmon Cleveland
PS The winner of my prior post regarding MAD DADS t-shirts was Robert "Bob" Cooper of the not so infamous MCDA. May he wear them well... >From: "JIM GRAHAM" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Subject: Re: [Mpls] Yes, we are living in the same City. Just each looking >at it thru the colored and distorted glasses of RACE >Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 21:55:53 -0500 > >Jonathan seems to take some liberalities with what I actually wrote. His >opinion of what I meant, and his assumptions about the real meaning of what >I said may be at odds with what I wrote and what I actually meant. > >I said the small minority of people of color was not enough to elect a >person of color until recently. I think this is true. When I asking the >question of Brandon, I was asking if Brandon actually thought a person >should be elected only on the basis of color just so we would be viewed as >liberal. The percentage of the population has changed so that there is more >power in the communities of color if they unite, and this has been lately >apparent. Of course this is about as likely as it was for Swedes and Irish >to unite behind a recent immigrant candidate in the 1890's. > >Jonathan should also think about another issue, I have never heard anyone >at >a political convention say that someone should be voted for because they >were white. I have heard the statement for a reason to vote for a Black >candidate on many such occasions. Any Democrat that says he or she has not >heard such is deaf or not being truthful. So Jonathan, have you ever said >that one of your qualifications was because you were a Black Candidate? Or >identified yourself as a Black candidate? Another question Jonathan, have >you ever heard a white candidate at a convention or debate identify himself >or herself as a white candidate or imply that they had a better >understanding of issues because of being white? In the south I have heard >such, but not in Minnesota. I could be wrong but I believe I may have heard >some such a statement from Jonathan. > >Jonathan also says, "Jim's implication was that they were, that almost >everyone came here as slave." > >I do not believe that was either said or implied at all. I in fact said, >"The ancestors of >today's population by and large immigrated to the US at least one full >generation after slavery was abolished. Though Minnesota had very little >real political interest in slavery, I think if you check you will find that >Minnesotans of that time, on a per-capita basis, gave their lives to end >slavery at a higher rate than almost any other State. Visit Shiloh or >Gettysburg and look at the memorials to Minnesota's dead. > >I also said, >"This country like almost every country in the world, and particularly >African Countries, has enslaved every race there is. Scots and Irish were >sent to this country as slaves, Chinese people came as slaves, Indian >people >were enslaved here, and of course Black people were. It is something we >all >share and something that we all bear. But lets not blame people >indiscriminately. I do not believe my wife's Norwegian grandparents who >came >in the 1920's, or their progeny, had anything to do with slavery in this >country, (and probably not Norway, since they were peasant farmers)." > >These are the actual things I wrote, so I have a problem seeing what >foundation Jonathan has for such a statement. I see nowhere here where I >said almost everyone came here as slaves. What I said was that all races >have been brought here as slaves or enslaved here. I also implied that all >peoples have practiced slavery until the very recent past. Quite a >different proposition, unless someone is making assumptions about what they >read. (Those distorted glasses I talked about or political opportunism). >And >Jonathan, have you ever read a Bible about the enslavement of the Jews by >the Egyptians because of perceived race. That was a mighty long time ago. >And yes Jonathan, the British, French, Spanish, Chinese, Japanese, >Russians, >Native Americans, etc. have practiced slavery by race. Their perception of >race may be different from yours, but as Jonathan says "race is nothing >more >than a non-existent social constructs." > >Jonathan writes, >"I didn't say they haven't had experience with discrimination, but rather >that they haven't had the same and definitely not equal experiences. Jim's >implication was that they were, that almost everyone came here as slaves. >The logical argument is such that if all external experiences and >characteristics were equal then the shortcomings in a particular group come >from internal characteristics or experiences." > >I argue again with "Jim's implication", (I didn't imply anything), but do >not argue with most of the rest. I would be the last person to argue that >we have experienced discrimination equally. But it does raise some >interesting questions about what has been experience by whom, and who has >experienced what. >1. Jonathon, where exactly was the sharecropper farm you grew up on? Mine >was in Clearlake and Armorel Arkansas. >2. How many rows of cotton did you ever chop? >3. How many pounds of cotton could you pick a day? >4. How many hours did you work with a machete in your hand at 100 degrees >and 90% humidity? >5. What tarpaper shack did you grow up in, and where was it? >6. Exactly how many childhood days did you miss from school so that you >could work to feed your family? >7. Did you have the family support to go to college? The connections to get >a scholarship? >8. How many times as a child did you join your mother to pick food out of a >dump in order to eat? >9. How many nights in the spring when the water rose have you lain and >listened to the cottonmouth moccasins hunting mice beneath your bed? (Now >this should be easy, cause I don't ever remember talking to someone who has >experienced it that doesn't say it is indelibly imprinted in his or her >brain) >10. Do you know what "Light to Light" means, and how often have you worked >it? >11. How many hours did you stand in the county commodity line? >12. How many times have you stood with your eyes down and been insulted by >the man knowing if you answered back you family would suffer? (This one >takes real guts, not many can do it, unless you HAVE to) > >Now for Minneapolis: >1. How many times have you been assaulted for being the color you are? In >Minneapolis? >2. As a child were you assaulted for your color so often that you had to >sneak down back alleys to get home from school? (My Children did in the >1980's in Minneapolis.) >3. Has anyone ever tried to burn down your house or garage because of what >color you are? How about brick or rock through your window? > >These are experiences I share with a lot of Black people who like me left >or >escaped to come here to Minnesota for a better life, but not all. Many of >these experiences I also share with other people of color, actually the >experiences are similar for people of many colors. So discrimination is by >no means equal, and the experiences of overcoming that poverty and >discrimination are by no means equal. I like you Jonathan, but you are a >little too young to know what real discrimination is all about. That it is >a >gut thing - not a theory thing. There are those in Minneapolis who do >though. > >"Yes we all have to deal with what we're dealt, but from a true approach of >dealing with the common good, we all work together to "even the playing >field", that means being aware of the advantages that you have by virtue of >how you're born." True, True, True, Jonathan. > >Jim Graham, >Ventura Village and formerly Tomato Bottom on the Mississippi Delta (See if >you can find it on a map, just a little south of Barfield.) > > > > > > > >_______________________________________ >Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy >Post messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more: >http://e-democracy.org/mpls _________________________________________________________________ Join the world�s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com _______________________________________ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest option, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
