* I believe that people on the list are misreading Vicky Heller. I also believe they will be "shocked" when I say that both she and Ron Edwards, despite coming from different ends of the political spectrum, have in mind the same sense of community well being and ethics in the administration of government and justice. * The historical reality is clear: capitalism has raised more people out of poverty than any other economic system. This irritates the heck out of those who hate capitalism. * Socialism in all its forms on all continents has failed. And where it still resides it is a disaster (North Korea and Cuba being prime examples). This is easily brushed aside by those who love socialism. They love their theory. Facts will not deter them from the vision. * And, of course, socialism exists in such enclaves as certain government agencies, think tanks, universities and church agencies. * All of the latter benefit from a capitalist system combined with democracy and the rule of law that makes it possible for them not to engage in traditional work roles so they can throw stones at those creating the wealth that enable them to work in environments where they can throw stones. * The basic problem is that of ethics and credibility. * When CNN and the NYT refuse to print facts (as about Iraq) because they are "waging peace" and fear that reporting the facts will make people support the war, you have a corrupt system. When the newspapers refuse to print the stories such that Vicky Heller and Ron Edwards write about, this is corrupt as well. They then lose their credibility, as the New York Times is all to slowly learning. * What both Vicky Heller and Ron Edwards are doing is exposing the corrupt nature of the Minneapolis system. * Note I said "system." A lot of people on this list get their knickers in in a knot because they think they are being personally accused of some kind of corruption, not realizing that there is more than one kind of corruption. * There is more than the kind of corruption that allowed a John Dillenger in St. Paul or an Al Capone in Chicago. * Corrupt can also be to "degrade" or "cause disintegration." * Thus, a CD can be corrupted by scratches which shorten its life and degrade the sound quality; error messages on a computer occur when a file has been corrupted; for those using word processing, as in making these emails, there is a "word recovery tool" for damaged or "corrupt word documents"; there is a utility for dealing with "corrupt spreadsheets," which refers not to the numbers but to the fact that they can't be read. * And although Jefferson said ""I hope we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country," we are now faced with other aristocracies, the aristocracies of government, certain unions, and governments themselves. * When companies get loans from the city and are not made to pay them back, you have a corporate-governmental complex, even if it is good people on both ends of the money. * Vickie is not talking against subsidies or any other kind of helps or assistance for people. What she is talking about is when the system becomes corrupted so that it abused by those who get tax payer money and don't pay it back when they are supposed to or get it and squander it. Both she and Ron are talking about more than just bad people doing bad things, which includes "lying and cheating." That is one form of political corruption. She is also talking about good people trying to do good things that have bad results (hence Ron's chapters on education, housing, contracting, etc.). There is also another form of political corruption: people believing that because they are good and have good intentions the results must also be good and therefore they can't see the bad in the good they are trying to do. Without a calculus of accounting, it is the effort that counts when in fact it should be the results that count. * Finally, there is the intellectual corruption of those who follow ideologies, whether of the left or right, regardless of the facts. When the left puts in policies that it claims will lead to political liberation, social equality, and better quality of life, and the results are the opposite, they become the equivalent of subborn assertions that despite what anyone says, shows or does to show the contrary, still hold to their belief that the earth is flat. The right wing had its fling with facism in the 30s, when it was deemed "the wave of the future" and "the right side of history" (including such believers as Minneapolis' own Charles Lindberg), to those on the left today who are certain of a socialist future. Both yield great disillusionment. Both result in many people suffering. * This is why I believe the problem resolution process outlined by Ron Edwards in his book will help resolve the issues Vicky discusses as well as those everyone else on this list discusses, regardless of which neighborhood they reside in. Peter Jessen, Portland, www.BeaconOnTheHill.com, publisher of www.TheMinneapolisStory.com.
-----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Victoria Heller Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2003 12:31 PM To: Mpls Forum Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Mpls] What Ever Happened to" Community?" David Wilson writes: 1. "If, as a policy argument, you are against *any* form of public subsidy, then say so." 2. "Wasn't the Heller-Segal (spelling corrected) project the recipient of federal subsidies?" 3. "Your argument is so disingenuous because you are the number 1 watchdog on this listserv for any development project that contains any degree of public subsidy. " 4. "You begrude homeowners like Vanessa the few thousand dollars that her family got to fix up her house (and thus contribute to the future stability of the housing stock and by extension, the neighborhood.)" Vicky responds: I don't really have the time or energy to fill the broad gap in the writer's education. So, just to set the record straight AGAIN....... 1. I am not against any form of public subsidy. I am against lying and cheating to get them. And I am against the government concealing them from the public. I understand and love our form of government, therefore I abide by our laws whether I like them or not. 2. Heller-Segal received Federally guaranteed mortgage loans - which were fully repaid after the foreclosure. You may be thinking of subsidies to the tenants in the form of Section 8 contracts which still exist at Riverside Plaza. 3. I hope that I am the #1 Watchdog: Thanks for the compliment. I wish our local journalists would do their jobs - so I could take some time off. 4. I don't begrudge Vanessa or anyone else. It is the City who has turned our property tax system into a lending/gifting facility. I guess I'm stuck in an earlier time when property taxes were supposed to be used to keep cities clean and safe. Period. 4. Also. When are we going to see the return on our investment? How will we know when the neighborhood is stable? Vicky Heller Cedar-Riverside and North Oaks TEMPORARY REMINDER: 1. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. 2. If you don't like what's being discussed here, don't complain - change the subject (Mpls-specific, of course.) ________________________________ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls TEMPORARY REMINDER: 1. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait. 2. If you don't like what's being discussed here, don't complain - change the subject (Mpls-specific, of course.) ________________________________ Minneapolis Issues Forum - A City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn E-Democracy Post messages to: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe, Unsubscribe, Digest, and more: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
