On Wednesday, June 11, 2003, at 10:39 PM, Mark Snyder wrote:
However, what I'm stuck on is the argument that appears to be West Broadway
and Lyndale is zoned for big box retail, therefore the only option that
should be considered for that location is big box retail. Unless I missed
something, no other reasons have been given as to why big box retail is
desired at this location. And given the history so far, I'm still not sure
why it would be desired. The Target opened in 1982. How has it contributed
to the growth and prosperity of the surrounding community in those twenty
years?
Just head a few blocks further west and see the difference! West Broadway from Target to I94 is doing relatively well thanks to having access to the Interstate and Target and a couple other stores as anchors.
Dyna does correctly point out that there are some businesses that simply
need a large amount of space. However, please forgive me if I'm skeptical
that folks on the northside are crying for a lumber yard at West Broadway
and Lyndale. Or a post office, for that matter.
I was using them merely as examples of users that need a lot of space. Actually it's the Southside that needs a new Post Office- Powderhorn, Minnehaha, Nokomis, and Diamond Lake are all way to small to be efficent.
Keith points out the Kodak building on West Broadway and Fremont sits vacant
and has 65,000 square feet available. While I did not know the total square
footage of the building, I certainly knew of it's existence. I rode the bus
past it for four years when I attended Minneapolis North. I drove past it
last week when I went to visit friends that recently bought a house on James
Ave. N. That might well be a good site for an incubator and at $2.2M for
that kind of square footage, it certainly deserves consideration.
An excellent site for an incubator- the building is in decent shape, has off street parking, etc..
But my main point is this: drawing a line in the sand regarding the Target
site and saying that it can ONLY be used for big box retail is both
narrow-minded and shortsighted.
No, carving up the Target site as you propose would be short sighted. There are very few sites in this city the size of Targets that are available. Unless we want to be stuck with inefficent and expensive boutiques to shop in we need to preserve large sites like Target's.
As Dyna also pointed out, the preferred size for such a store is around
100,000 square feet. According to Target, it's more like 120,000 square
feet, since they said their 80,000 square foot store was 2/3 the size of
their newer stores. So we have an undersized store in a neighborhood that's
been dissed as unwilling to support it by the corporation that is abandoning
it. Just who does anyone think is going to come in and make another go at
big box retail anytime soon at this site?
I said around 100,000 square feet- much bigger than that and the building is too large, and the users find themselves doing stupid thinks like trucking stuff from one side of the building to the other. Much smaller and you lose economies of scale like the ability to take on carload or truckload quantities of stuff.
Cub? Ha, they're too busy trying to weasel their way onto Central Ave or
Hiawatha even thought they're not wanted. K-Mart? They're just coming out of
bankruptcy, so they're not going to be opening new stores anytime soon.
Kohl's? Doubtful - anyone ever seen an urban Kohl's? Home Depot? No - the
store is too small. Wal-Mart? Nope, it's too small for them, too. Rainbow?
See K-Mart. So who else is there? Anybody heard any scuttlebutt on who the
two so-called interested parties for this site are supposed to be?
Cub is a possibility, but they may have a territorial non compete agreement with the new owners of the Super Valu. The new owners of Super Valu could get a CUB franchise too, but that would be canabalising their own store and unlikely. Another possibility is Menard's- They have been trying to get into the central cities and this is one of the few sites available.
In my earlier post, when I described one advantage of a Mercado-style
development being multiple options for such things as groceries or clothing,
Dyna commented: "And when half the business in your Broadway Mercado go
under, who'll pay the bills?"
And who says a Mercado would succeed on Broadway- their market is mostly on the Southside.
I'd like to remind Dyna and others that Mercado Central opened in 1999 with
around two dozen businesses. Now, during three years of recession, it's
EXPANDED to twice that number, with a waiting list of people wanting to get
in there. Have there been any failings during that time? Probably. But if
they've managed to grow so dramatically during three years of recession,
they must be doing something right. I suppose there's always the possibility
that if a Mercado-style development were to locate on West Broadway, that
there could be a situation in which half the businesses might fail at some
point. However, I strongly suspect such a situation is far less likely than
another big box failing.
Again, the Mercado Central concept may not work everywhere.
Dyna also responded to my "small is beautiful" statement by saying that it's
expensive. I'm not 100% sold on that alleged fact, I'll give Dyna the
benefit of the doubt, but will ask that in turn, she remember the old saying
that a cynic is one who knows the price of everything and the value of
nothing.
Another reality check- to get decent rates on shipping you need to buy in truckload or carload. That needs you need stores big enough to handle big trucks and contain truckloads of stuff. A little store that is having to have everything shipped in by the case or skid will have much higher costs than a larger, more efficent one. Their are also overhead costs to consider- many of the things a business needs (rest rooms, telephone, etc.) are required whether they have one employee or 100 on site. Again, the larger store has greater economies of scale.
Some people make their shopping choices simply based on price, others make
their choices based on value.
Mark, most working folks can't afford to choose to pay more for dubious benefits.
I'm willing to pay $9 a pound for fair trade
coffee because I believe in the value of helping a farmer be able to make a
respectable living at his trade more than I believe in getting the cheapest
coffee I can find.
Coffee is a commodity and in no way should it cost $9 a pound, and your purchase of a few pounds a year is having zilch effect on the coffee market.
I'm willing to forgo the 40% off sales at Barnes and Noble to buy books at Ruminator or MayDay or Arise! because I believe independent bookstores add to our communities.
And your favorite indy bookstores have rather limited selection.
I pay more for milk from
Cedar Summit Farms in New Prague because I think it's cool that they still
offer returnable bottles after Schroeder Milk stopped doing that last year.
Mark, I don't know if you've noticed but we have a dairy up on the Northside too, kiddy corner to Target. It's a union shop and it's been there forever. So I support my neighborhood dairy and you can dispose of that scab stuff from Shroeder's at a proper Hazmat facility. And I'm not about to waste energy driving to New Prague just for milk.
Don't be afraid to think outside the big box. :-)
Again, big boxes offer economy of scale- take a look at the St.Paul Ford plant some day. That facility is actually two plants, and believe it or not it's one of Ford's smallest. Can you imagine what a Ranger Pickup would cost if it were hand built in a little neighborhood shop? Probably about $100,000, and the quality would be lower. Thanks to mass production in some really big boxes you can buy the best small pickup in the world for less than $10,000 and it's union made by our neighbors right next door in St.Paul!
On the other hand, a 100,000 square foot bicycle shop is extreme overkill....
hanging on in Hawthorne,
Dyna Sluyter
Mark Snyder Windom Park
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