>>>>> "DJR" == David J Rust <David> writes:
DJR> On Jan 20, 2005, at 3:44 PM, Leurquin, Ronald wrote:
>> Does anyone know the status of the much discussed camera cops for
>> ticketing persons running red lights? I personally am hoping we get
>> them sooner rather than later. I was privileged to watch two
>> different semi run the light at 50th and Hiawatha this morning.
DJR> This is an interesting issue to me.
DJR> On one hand, I have a fundamental discomfort with surveillance
systems
DJR> being used by the state or state-sanctioned offices to spy on citizens.
DJR> On the other hand, enforcement of traffic laws is always
criticized as
DJR> either not sufficient to force good behavior on the road or taking
away
DJR> police officers from more pressing concerns.
DJR> In the end, I'm not sure that I'm fond of the cameras. I obey
the
DJR> laws -we ALL obey the laws, don't we? <insert cynical smile,
DJR> here>- but even if it means fining another bad driver $100, I
DJR> feel that the cold, impartial eye of a camera is something
DJR> that I don't want watching me. Personally, I may be willing
DJR> to live with the status quo or paying for more traffic patrol
DJR> officers as "visible deterrent" rather than relying upon a
DJR> somewhat Orwellian approach.
Actually, I think your impression of this as Orwellian is not
justified by the actual technology (unless the city plans to use a
VERY inappropriate method), and I'm inclined to challenge you on the
tradeoff (although everyone's perception of risk is their own).
RISK: For all the talk about the war on terror, and a zillion other
threats I can't be bothered to remember right now, the biggest threat
to my life, and the lives of my family members is being squashed by
some jerk who can't be bothered to drive carefully and in a
law-abiding way. Sadly, the number of such jerks seems to be
skyrocketing.
To me, the price of the status quo is too high, and despite the very
real threat of automotive death, no police department that I've ever
seen (so no denigration to the Minneapolis Police is intended), has
given traffic enforcement, particularly for moving violations,
anything near the priority it should have, judging from mortality
rates. At best, we see fitful pushes to crack down, restricted in
area and duration.
Even when we do see more enforcement, I think you'll find that the
rate of conviction can be low. If you fight a ticket, the chance is
very, very, high that you will win, because it's too expensive to
throw away an officer's time to go to traffic court.
DJR> I trust the police; I trust the real, human officers
DJR> who can walk up
DJR> to my window if I've broken a law. I can talk to that person
DJR> and I appreciate the human quality of it. The cameras are
DJR> another issue altogether. The analogy that springs to mind
DJR> is the automated voice mail systems that have made talking to
DJR> your doctor such a chore. I feel that a dispassionate,
DJR> computer-controlled system is something that is intimidating.
I'd be interested to see whether members of various minority
communities feel the same way. As I've said above, I think there's
essentially a 0% probability that we will see any human-based
enforcement. But let's pretend for a moment that there were: even in
that case these cameras would be a nice alternative to the arguments,
and lawsuits, over racial profiling I can easily imagine following hot
on the heels of stepped up enforcement. I think members of minority
groups should support the cameras, and the MPD should feel that this
gives them the opportunity to dodge unpleasant controversy.
DJR> I'm not sure I want to feel as if Minneapolis is now
DJR> under the protective eye of something that I can't
DJR> accept as "human." Even if live police are monitoring
DJR> the cameras on the other end, I would still feel this
DJR> way ... as if I was, to an extent, under "lockdown" in
DJR> my own home.
PRIVACY RISK: You will have more of your privacy preserved under a
camera system that just take snapshots of your car and license
plate, if you run a light, than under human surveillance.
This is what European countries have: systems that photograph you ONLY
IF YOU RUN THE LIGHT.
Such a system only invades your privacy when you have sacrificed it by
breaking the law.
A police officer at the intersection is going to be staring into your
car and seeing you make goofy gestures, sing along to the radio, argue
with your spouse, pick your nose, etc., etc. no matter whether you
break the law or not.
DJR> I hope these feelings make sense to you; I want to bring my
view as
DJR> clearly as possible without sounding "nuts."
I understand your feelings, but I don't think they are justified by
this situation. This is not surveillance camera technology (or should
not be, anyway). It's just photographing cars that run lights. So
this is LESS of a privacy invasion than an officer at the corner (or
the video machine in your convenience store), it takes less away from
violent crime enforcement, its cheaper, and it isn't prone to racial
bias. I think it's a win.
By the way, I'd love to have someone more in the know about
Minneapolis' plans chime in about the technology to be used. We
absolutely should NOT be using surveillance cameras for this job; we
should only photograph lawbreaking cars. If we are thinking of using
surveillance cameras then David would be dead right, that would be
Orwellian!
Meanwhile, David is right to be worried about threats to our privacy,
but these mostly come from people aiming cameras and other
surveillance devices at us that are on all the time, instead of being
triggered by particular behaviors. If these issues matter to you, the
Electronic Frontier Foundation (www.eff.org) is a good source for
information.
Best,
R
--
Robert P. Goldman
ECCO
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
REMINDERS:
1. Be civil! Please read the NEW RULES at http://www.e-democracy.org/rules. If
you think a member is in violation, contact the list manager at [EMAIL
PROTECTED] before continuing it on the list.
2. Don't feed the troll! Ignore obvious flame-bait.
For state and national discussions see: http://e-democracy.org/discuss.html
For external forums, see: http://e-democracy.org/mninteract
________________________________
Minneapolis Issues Forum - A Civil City-focused Civic Discussion - Mn
E-Democracy
Post messages to: mailto:[email protected]
Subscribe, Un-subscribe, etc. at: http://e-democracy.org/mpls
