Paul,
Let me say first I was just having some fun with your email. I bracketed
everything I said in fun with it being late and my mind slipping. I love wit
and satire.
But at the same time, I don't think your answer was particularly helpful.
I notice you conveniently left out the part of my email where I actually
provided an answer to the original query.
I thought I included your google and contractor answers. If you're referring
to some other part of that email, I've just re-read it and don't see what I
failed to quote. Maybe you're referring to a different email which I didn't
reply to.
Aren't we suppose to encourage people to find their own answers rather
than
holding their hand through their own laziness?
Encourage is the key word. Anyone can discourage someone to go and find
their own answers (by discouraging them from using us as a resource).
I think Phil makes a good point about you purposely wanting to come across
harshly, that's not too encouraging of an action.
I like helping people as
well, but it's very frustrating when they stand back and want it all done
for them.
I didn't feel like that's what Yang wanted at all.
Here's my take on what's going on with Yang. He obviously doesn't have
English as his primary language, and I'd say either has newly learned it or
just doesn't have the practice at reading and writing English to understand
everything he reads and hears.
To add to that, it doesn't appear he's been using msvc all too long - he was
asking about all the basic types just a couple of weeks ago.
I wouldn't be surprised if he even has trouble getting around on the dev
menu. English is my primary language and I had been using MSVC for about 3
years daily, all day. They came out with that new release just past the mid
point in the '90s (I think maybe '96 or '97) and it took me several hours to
figure out how to create a new project, the menu had changed and wasn't
intuitive to me any more. Another couple hours and I figured out how to
build the project.
I know if I had that kind of trouble and I was fluent English and literate
in using the program, there's no telling how much frustration Yang faces
just trying to accomplish the simplest tasks.
And then the language barrier affects him strongly whenever he reads the
msdn or other English-based help on the web. Even though he can read and
write his proficiency isn't there to always give him the full meaning of
what he reads. I work with Latinos in my community, which exposes me to
Spanish, and I've traveled to Haiti twice and am adopting 4 Haitian
children, which is exposing me to French and Creole (we talk to the children
every couple weeks). These languages are easier to relate to and understand
because they have Latin at the root. But misunderstandings still happen
frequently because of subtle differences in word usage, culture, intonation,
etc. I'd imagine it's a lot harder to try to use English from an Asian
language that has no relationship with English at all.
So, from my perspective he's struggling to learn this new and exciting thing
of programming, and it's a daily frustration and up-hill climb. And then
when he comes here looking for help, what do we give him?
When Ehsan first came to msvc he was also frustrated (Ehsan is Iranian and
learned English as a second language). msvc seemed confusing and it was
easier to just use VB. He tried msvc for about 6 months and was ready to
give up. I'm sure the language barrier had been a part of the problem, and
the general complexity of C, C++, MFC, etc... I encouraged him to stick it
out and helped him with a couple of fundamental concepts. In about 6 months
he had made a complete turn around. It wasn't long and he surpassed me in
the breadth and depth of his understanding. I still maintain my contact with
Ehsan and he's actually been the one that helps me now...
I did think Yang's questions on the basic types was a little basic, and I
didn't say anything back then and could have (I've changed direction over
the past 4-5 years and don't keep up with this list as frequently as I used
to). I don't have a whole lot of variant knowledge, other than I rarely had
to use it and tried to avoid it if possible (I'm more of a C kind of guy and
like to stick to the basic types and do manual conversions between those
types).
Ehsan is the admin over this list and when we first talked about it he took
on that responsibility knowing that if a question doesn't get answered, he's
got to dig around and try to find the answer or help the person by putting
them in the right direction. I wouldn't be condescending by actually telling
Yang step-by-step how to google (I have done that in the past, I admit it),
but some gentle prompts of what resources have been used, and if this list
(google, msdn, etc) had been used and to what extent would be a nice way of
not just giving Yang fish, but teaching him how to fish for himself.
(reminds me of one of the signatures I've seen around here: "build a man a
fire and you've warmed him for a night, set a man on fire and you've warmed
him for the rest of his life!")
I don't think you were overly harsh myself. I'm English and would expect
that type of answer if I had posed those same questions. But I don't think
you were sensitive enough (or perhaps aware enough) of the frustration that
Yang may experience on a daily basis using msvc with a language barrier.
Let's get off this topic and get back to one of my favorites: Java-bashing.
;-)
/dev
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