On Wed, 19 Apr 2000 23:53:13 +0200, Patriek Lesparre wrote:
>> So lets use PIII, it is able to run at least 4 (four) 8 bit instructions at
>>a cicle... (-:
>x86 sucks. Zx80 rulez. :)
Finally we agree on something!!! (((((((((((((((((-:
>There is, because if half of the MSX'ers buy a Z180 board, and half a Z380
>board, there's less market for new Z380 programs! If cool new Z380 programs
>come out, people who have already bought a Z180 board won't cash out again
>and buy a Z380 board as well!
>It's like, if you just bought a Music Module, you're not gonna buy a
>MoonSound just because it's better and has more possibilities. (Unless you
>are rolling in money ;))
I have MSX Audio *and* Moonsound and I'm not rolling in money... (((((-:
But I think even if only one board is made, a few people will buy it.
Besides, you'll be able to run almost any software made for Z180,
maybe a little slower (you'll maybe have to run it on Z80 mode),
but you'll be able to run. ADVRAM software also will be possible on
Z380, since ADVRAM is not main processor dependant. The only point
is that Z380 specific programs will not run on Z180, but it'll not
run on ordinary Z80 also (and I really think the main MSX base will
be for a looooooooooooong time Z80s.)
>Is it the LIMITS that define the MSX standard for you?
No. But a computer is defined by THREE things: It's bus, it's memory
management and the basic set of instructions. Generally this
makes the backward compatibility on some level. And yes, you
may think on 286/386 as a new computer, since almost everything
changes a lot inside PC when comparing with XT... (-: Our
today's PCs are a 386 enhanced with a XT inside it (V86 mode).
>> Yes? Sorry, but stupid is talk about something we don't know.
>Yes it's stupid to talk about something you don't know, but it's a fact the
>Z380 is a inferior CPU compared to many other recent CPU's. (And I'm not
>talking solely about x86 ones)
>The only reason to use it in MSX is that it's Z80 compatible and also MSX
>programmers are used to programming in assembly.
Yes, but if the main programmers for the new hardware are Z80 programmer,
it's a good issue to use Z380. Besides, on the EduCar architeture, the
main processor will do almost nothing, since every single piece of
hardware has it's own CPU/Memory/Bus. The Z380 will act just like a
maestro... (-:
>If you take a fast enough processor, a programmer can program in any
>machine language he wants, because Z380 (and 6502/65816/68000 whatever) can
>be emulated at least as fast as the real CPU would run.
But we are talking on a new computer to be WELL used, not to be POORLY
used. PC is the worst used hardware ever made. We simply cannot base any
thought on it.
>Oh I agree with you completely, but nevertheless fact is, the faster the
>CPU, the faster the computer.
But a fast computer without software is not useful also. (-: And we know
(and know a lot) of Z80 programming.
But hey... Educar is a Brazilian project with target on Brazil... Do not
care about it... (-:
>I'm sure when it's finished and widely available the spec's will be known.
>Anyway, what spec's are you waiting for?
At least a clear information on how it'll works. It would be nice to
have an emulator even before the hardware shows up, so we can develop to
it! (-:
>But with the current limitations of the MSX hardware/CPU.
>For example, nobody's gonna write a game that NEEDS to run on a Z180,
>because will not be that many people who own it (especially in the
>beginning). Where on the other hand, the Z380 has so much new potential
>it's fun exploring it and in that process write a game, without caring who
>will play it.
This is a subjective matter. (-: BTW, Z180 with ADVRAM will be fast
enough to develop very good games... be sure of that. Pe.: do you know
that a Z180 is capable of decompress a MP3 perfectly well? The Z180 is
a really good processor. Z380 is better in some ways, of course...
it's newer. And it's faster for this specific task (it's a FPU after
all!)... But I don't know if this will be needed.
Besides, some limitations are good to skill the programmers. If we
have unlimited processament and unlimited memory... the worst program
will run "usable". An example? M$ Windows... ((((-:
>So we'll have to use BrMSX including all it's incompatibilities to program
>something that we don't even can get in our real MSX's?! What about all the
>MSX programmers that don't even have a PC?
>Be realistic, having a feature in an emulator without having the feature
>available as hardware is not a good reason to use it.
I'm talking about program on BrMSX to ADVRAM for those that can run BrMSX.
And... of course, BrMSX is full of incompatibilities... But I'll have ADVRAM
in one or two months... (-: I'll just "make me confortble" with the new
hardware using BrMSX. And, even with all incompatibilities, there is not
a single tool to program ASM better than BrMSX! ((((-: Program ASM using
BrMSX is almost as easy as program Basic! You can debug step-by-step,
disasm, change data on memory... something very useful. BTW, BrMSX was
made for programming, not for playing. (-:
>so what old software are you so desperate to run at that
>super-great-speed-that's-much-greater-than-Z380?! WHAT'S THE USE?
On this point of view, what is the use for a new MSX? What is the
use for the MSX?
Are we just a bunch of lazy people that doesn't want to learn a
new language to program on another system? I really don't think so.
>Hey, combined with the 32bit slotexpander the Z380 board becomes a
>motherboard for a new MSX.
Combined with MSX, the Z180 board makes MSX dual-processor in
assimetric multiprocessment. Gee. And if we have Z180 MSX, we
will have two Z180 on assimetric multiprocessment. This starts
to sound very nice! (-:
>But there should, since otherwise every new MSX project is doomed.
This is a sad statement... but it's a statement a lot of us
will agree.
>*sigh* maybe you're right...
>but still I see no real reason to use Z380 over Z180, because the speedgain
>is not so big and Z380 has so much more advantages.
In fact, I think the good one will be that we have. (((-: The
better computer is ours, its not? (((-; I'll like one or other,
if the become useful computers. In these past years I saw lots
of projects being droped. I hope these two don't. Worst than
two differente new MSXs is NO new MSX... right? (((-:
>Indeed MSX is not perfect, but ACE002 w/ Z180 isn't gonna clean it up either!
It'll not, but will be 100% backward compatible with the MSX's weirdness... (-:
>I know I haven't been give any good reason to believe a Z180 board is a
>better idea than using Z380.
I think everything depends on the implementation. Lets see and compare
in the future. It's just something significant to talk that Ademir was
working with Z380 and suddenly changed to Z180. He has several reasons,
and explained a lot of them to us, two weeks ago, here, in Sao Paulo. But
I don't think I have the skill to reproduce Ademir's thoughts, because
I do not understand every aspect of the things he talk about. Most things
I know that is, but not why.... so, it's better do not mention.
>I will, but there should be at least SOME conformity in the MSX world...
>Or maybe I'm dreaming?
I don't know... /-: MSX world was never a plain world.
>I was talking about those lazy C-programmers who either outgrown assembly,
>or never learned it in the first place.
>For me, assembly isn't a bother, in fact it's the only thing (next to
>basic) I can really program.
(((-: I program several languages, but I think ASM is the better one. It's
challenging, the result fast, and you can do wonderful things never dreamed
with high-level languages... (-:
>Yes it has a lot of opcodes, it also has very little registers...
Well, you can push/pop lots of data... (-:
>So why limit what you have by using Z180 in stead of Z380?
I don't really think we will be able to get everything Z380 can give.
Not because our limitations, but because MSX hardware. On the end,
we will be blaming on MSX, because "this is sooooo slow! My Z380
is waiting decades while the VDP chage it's pages...!" (((-:
There is no real delightment on programming such computer... It's
nice when you optimize 'that' routine and the program that was
sloooooooooooow becomes faster! (-:
Anyway, I think there will be no difference on programming
(and on programs) using Z380 or Z180. It'll be almost the same.
The main difference is that several Z180 programs will be available
for Z80 users (slower, but they will run) and Z380 programs will
probably never run on Z80 hardware.
>>Z80 was never a good processor for V9938 and V9958, per example. Port acess
>>to V9938 and V9958 was never a good solution. What to do? Solve these
>>problems. And that's all. (-:
>Z180 isn't gonna solve that, ADVRAM probably is.(I guess that's what you mean)
Both. Z80 with ADVRAM is not "that good solution" also. Z80 with ADVRAM is
something like a TK with a BIG VRAM and RAM! (-:
>I'm not saying to use the faster processor, you've clearly shown Z180@33Mhz
>outruns a Z380@14Mhz on Z80-compatible code. I'm saying one should use the
>most CAPABLE processor, regardless of speed.
Outruns Z380 at 18Mhz. ((((((-: But the question is: have we the right
to change the standard? This is the fact. The proposal of ACE002 is create
the topmost MSX ever inside the EXISTENT standard, and not creating a new
standard. ADVRAM is something extra. It's somewhat out of the standard boundaries,
but do not affect any aspect of the standard. All programs that run on a normal
MSX will run with ADVRAM also. (-:
>In that case you prove my point. Z380 is the faster processor at same
>clockspeed.
Yes, but there will never be a Z380 at 33MHz... (-: At least, Z380 is
an almost 10 years old processor and never had it's speed changed.
The only processor Zilog updated the clockspeed was Z80, with the 10Mhz
and the 20Mhz versions...
>> Thanks to tell me. It's your word against Ademir and Delavy ones.
>*sigh*
>Have they any good reasons to use Z180? I'd love to hear one...
I'll try to convince them to write some lines... (-:
AbraçOS/2, Daniel Caetano ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
...!m.tag
OS/2 Sites: http://www.quasarbbs.com/daniel/
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/8752/os2hp/os2index.html
MSX Sites: http://www.fudeba.cjb.net/
Drawings: http://www.djgallery.tsx.org/
****
MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
and put "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes) in
the body (not the subject) of the message.
Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
More information on MSX can be found in the following places:
The MSX faq: http://www.faq.msxnet.org/
The MSX newsgroup: comp.sys.msx
The MSX IRC channel: #MSX on Undernet
****
