Am 06.09.2011 12:46, schrieb Ramón Miranda: > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Ramón Miranda <[email protected]> > Date: 2011/9/6 > Subject: Re: [Mypaint-discuss] New Gui critique > To: David REVOY <[email protected]> > > > > > 2011/9/6 David REVOY <[email protected]> > >> ** >> Hey, >> >> Hey, not a problem. There's the forum thread on this too. >> >> Cool, I really thought again during the day to my morning email and >> thought *" oh , maybe I shoudn't write critique just after testing ; it's >> a bit a in-flame attitude that is not my way to do things"* . >> >> So I feel better for having your feedback. >> Btw, thanks for your long mail and time , it's perfect to understand the >> choice and limitations. >> > > I don´t think feedback is bad after testing, it is the first impression and > for a new user this is very important. it can be the key to reopen the > program or to reject it. > >> >> * The toolbar is the width it is purely so the brush preview can >> display nicely. Try it with 24: everything looks very compressed and >> icon text is unreadable. Suggestions welcome though; 32 is quite tall. >> 32 is quite tall indeed... 24 does look nicer / use less screen estate but it's true that the brush icons are hard to "read". Hm... maybe the toolbaricon itself could be 24px², but the dropdown items could be taller.
>> This brush preview is really nice and lovable at the actual size ; I >> understand it's something this new GUI want's to preserve. So maybe it's not >> a problem of this tall bar ; but more on the size of other icons. >> I remember Jonnor did a branch by the past with a cool widget for brush >> feedback on the top-right of the top bar ; it was also a nice place for it , >> but with docking now on the right , the palette icons are more logical in >> this place. >> > > please big icons, more confortable to tablet pc users, and all in general. > 32 px is good. I love to see this type of historic brush and without nothing > be able to see what tool i am using if i hide the brush panel. That's true - but the toolbar size could be an option. > >> * Sometimes internal button and toolbar borders can bump it out a bit >> too. Hacking on the runtime settings in gui/widgets.py seems to help >> for specific cases. >> >> ok >> >> * Some people really like the top-left menu button, others hate it and >> prefer a conventional menu bar. You get a choice. >> >> i hate it. Adds one click more to my workflow. but is imho . and for new > users can be a bit distracting. > It even looks distracting. I mean, if it weren't highlighted (or autofocused?) I might be able to live with it (or simply use the menu bar). >> Oh, I see. For the moment in Edit > preference > unhide menu doesn't >> work yet. I'm not against this option and a configurable toolbar when I can >> get rid of this button. +1 for a configurable toolbar. We'd still have to provide a sane default, anyway. >> Personally I don't use a lot the menu on my everyday usage ; but I was >> mainly affraid new users will not explore it because of this way all is >> hidden. If you have good feedback, >> I may be generating wrong analysis , because I mostly fine with compacting >> menus this way ( I'm a chromium user :-P ) >> >> * Sliders are fiddly, look really ugly and inconsistent on toolbars >> (in my experience; I've never been happy with the mockups I did), and >> are best done in a dropdown panel. >> >> I still have in mind my first innocent mockup when starting using Mypaint >> 0.5 / 0.6 for sliders ... >> http://david.revoy.free.fr/forums/Mypaint/mypaint-makeup-future-07.jpg >> That's why my opinion may be is not 'fresh' but still related about this >> old dream. >> >> I tried Glade, and I begin slowly with tutorials ( it's a good tool ) ; I >> could discover a widget called 'Scale slider' ( looking like that : >> http://origin.arstechnica.com/reviews/os/gnome-2-20-review.media/gtk-volume.png) >> who just pop on mouse over an icon ( or also a text entry box with only >> written the value ) ; I find it very interresting ; because it can maybe >> help to have fast tweaks for opacity and scale ; This is a purely personal preference (ppp :D) but I have never liked ("standalone") popup sliders like that. I'd prefer the sliders reside in a dropdown like the one shown when pressing the asterisk button. That one btw is wonderful. I like how spacey the dropdown is, doesn't feel as cramped/tight as standard dropdowns and is certainly suitable for tablets/touch devices. >> >> I'm a big user of the sliders tools at the bottom of the brush panel >> widget. ( especially opacity and radius ) >> >> I also would ask if Gimp new shiny sliders ( >> http://www.gimpusers.com/system/tutorial_steps/2690/new_sliders-original.jpg >> ) are a common library with GTK and PyGTK because they looks good for this >> kind of usage ( better than traditional sliders ) . But maybe they are Gimp >> specific and can't be 'stolen' >> >> i modify size and radius by keyboard, but i would love to resize on the fly > by something like Shift+drag the stylus. > >> >> * You don't get the full brush editor on the Brush Settings dropdown >> because space is limited, and presenting the full editor would be >> massively overwhelming. It should be simple and pretty, and quick to >> understand, and I made a choice about which sliders to show - >> hopefully a good one. >> >> Ok, that's good, and my point wasn't really good about it. I thought >> about it, and I really reconsidered my point of view about it ; full brush >> setting is not a placement for that , for sure. >> >> Btw , I would also see on the type of sliders there, angle and aspect >> ratio of the brush. ( for artist using knife tools , to control angle ) >> I like the slow tracking addition ; useful for artist who do line art and >> need lines smoothing. >> > > I like the actual behaviour, but i find the order Wrong imho. i would put > Radio Opacity Hardness Angle and Tracking 5 parameters are not too much. I > like the save button mock up of David, to fast edit. And the button for > brush editor is good placed there. imho. > >> >> * Actually, you sort of -do- get the full editor in the dropdown. >> It's just on a button :) >> >> Yep, a advanced brush editor button is nice. Thanks to did it. >> >> * I use quite a big font here because I use a hi-res screen and don't >> like squinting. That may be making the menu button's label look >> better-spaced on my screen than yours, and that maay be skewing my >> judgement on this. Willing to compromise on toolbar width if I get >> good suggestions about preview stuff up there. >> >> This menu button label can be decorated with the Mypaint Icon ? that could >> looks like a 'start' button of O.S. ; something friendly. >> >> * Can't vouch for the Faenza set, but yeah. I use it myself, and that >> size looks *ugly*. See above about the 32px setting. Suggest how I >> could cram a 256px brush preview into 24px (preview-on-hover or >> tooltip is one idea, give me mockups, raise bug reports! :)) >> It could display a dropdown displaying only the active brush and on click reveal the brush history etc. >> faenza icons are pretty. the better is the non color effect. less > distracting. > >> Yes I have to think about it ; with Glade I saw you have to deal with a >> kind of splitted frames ordered like table to enter button and icons ; it's >> really not simple. >> >> * I want the quick brush selector to appear in the brush chooser >> dropdown alongside the history. Watch this space :) >> >> Cool ! >> >> * Same thing for the colour menu, though initially you may get a >> colour triangle and the history. The color button/label as it is now does not look good. I already said that on IRC: maybe a circle or a single brush dab could be used instead (for an icon). >> >> Oh good ; about colors ; a GUI things I would like is to have the HSV bar >> color selector as a separated widget in Mypaint. >> I like it , but because it is attached to the square color selector , I >> never use it. >> > > same here , then the color area is too big. some times HSV is useful and i > have to change my setup to use it. > >> * Blend modes are just too obscure a feature to have visible >> initially. I'd rather new users just choose a specialised eraser brush >> for erasing out, and ignore Lock Alpha completely unless they choose >> to experiment. However I'm designing the toolbar XML with UI merging >> in mind. Options may be available later >> on:https://gna.org/bugs/index.php?18606 >> >> Good ; to switch between future Blending mode easily is somehting I would >> really like. But of course no blending mode yet, so ; this is not an actual >> question. >> > I love blending modes , i would like to see them in the future. which arm of > mine do you want to be included, maybe an eye? :D > >> * Really glad you like the change of icon when the brush settings >> change from the presets :) It's an ugly orange asterisk because I may >> be overlaying it on top of the history icons at some point if *they* >> have changed from their presets. Other suggestions welcome :) >> >> As it is related to brushes ,the icon is weird, but the feature of lighting > the icon is cool. also when you modify settings. cool. > >> I like a lot of thing in this new UI ; thanks for the big job. >> It's really about little things finally my first critiques was about. >> > > My respects too. it is a hard hard work to develope something. > >> * Save button in the brush settings is definitely a nice touch! Save >> back to (the user copy of) the parent brush, presumably? If we do >> this, any revamp of the brush editor dialog should use similar-looking >> UI. >> >> Thanks to agree on it ; here I often change Radius of my preset then save >> it depending the artwork size. >> Hitting each time Ctrl+B and find the right icon was really hard ( with my >> Faenza theme, the icons in Brush editors are a bit abstract ) >> A shortcut like this is really welcome :) >> >> I agree Brush editor dialog should have on the top 'name label' instead of >> icons >> ( save settings / Add as New / Edit brush Icon / Rename / Remove ) >> >> well i am used to them, but i think it is fast to understand text. more > when we got the right amount of space. > >> >> I also propose myself for doing a more cleans series mockups ( photomontage >> of screenshot ) to show what would rocks imho with the actual element ( no >> new features , just littles GUI tweaks here and there ). >> Also, this mockup could be shown to other artist to discuss and be surely >> less work for me to change them , than to change it in code >> ( like webdesign process, I guess ). >> >> Yes yes yes! Mockups are always welcome, though we may not implement >> everything. You may want to play around with the Glade user interface >> designer to see what's available with standard widgets[1] - we don't >> use GtkBuilder or libglade UI definition files within mypaint, but if >> you make something nice, I can lift the details of spacing and layout >> etc. from the mockups you make if you share the file. >> >> BTW, I'm >> consideringhttp://developer.gnome.org/hig-book/3.0/design-window.html.en and >> the >> spacing guidelines within it as a general standard. In fact the entire >> HIG book is quite reasonable as a standard approach (I use the Tango >> icon guidelines and palette when I'm making tool icons though - to my >> limited degree of skill :) >> >> [1] much quicker for us to implement :) >> >> Thanks for the ressources, be sure I will study them carrefuly ; I already >> started with Glade, and it's perfect to see the 'vocabulary' of GTK widget. >> >> My first mockup proposition would looks like this : >> http://david.revoy.free.fr/forums/Mypaint/2011-09-06_screenshot-mockup.jpg >> ( not perfect, but just to express ideas ). >> >> Again thanks for your time reading and writing and coding; >> now, I will let other express theirself on this subject and will study your >> links and comeback to the work I started on Mypaint website :) >> + >> >> This is what i call feedback, lot of ideas here, i could help to test > things too .so let me know David. this mockups could be interesting starting > point. > >> -David >> ____________________________ >> http://www.davidrevoy.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Mypaint-discuss mailing list >> [email protected] >> https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/mypaint-discuss >> >> > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Mypaint-discuss mailing list > [email protected] > https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/mypaint-discuss Something more general: I'd love to make use of all those shortcuts present in the toolbar (shortcuts as in "a faster way to get to somewhere else") BUT when painting full screen it isn't visible. I tend to TAB every now and then to toggle the widgets/sidebar and that's not possible with a toolbar. I mean, one could of course hit F11 to toggle fullscreen mode, but seeing that that action of course restores the pre-fullscreen window state/size/position it doesn't quite work out. What about having those quick-access buttons in yet another widget (which can be placed anywhere, top, bottom, left, right, whatever). (Something quite different: for tablet users - as they usually cannot or do not want to press [physical] buttons - display a button which displays an icon depicting the widget with an arrow next to it, which upon press reveals the corresponding widget. I think I've already seen a similar mockup in the wiki) Till _______________________________________________ Mypaint-discuss mailing list [email protected] https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/mypaint-discuss
