Very true. https://www.cidr-report.org/cgi-bin/plota?file=%2fvar%2fdata%2fbgp%2fas2.0%2fbgp%2dactive%2etxt&descr=Active%20BGP%20entries%20%28FIB%29&ylabel=Active%20BGP%20entries%20%28FIB%29&with=step
"big enough" equipment from not that long ago couldn't carry a full table today (or tomorrow). ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions Midwest Internet Exchange The Brothers WISP ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe Maimon" <[email protected]> To: "Mike Hammett" <[email protected]>, "Tom Beecher" <[email protected]> Cc: "NANOG" <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, January 5, 2023 2:22:22 PM Subject: Re: SDN Internet Router (sir) Lots of 1M tcam fib limits in older gear....... So yeah, its the same problem, bigger numbers and still not solved in any sort of non-painful or expensive way. I think Ill explore the google path and paper on it again. Joe Mike Hammett wrote: > Then please bless the world with the right way. > > You acknowledge that not every router in a network needs to be fully > DFZ capable, but then crap on my desire to have more than a default > route in one. > > > > ----- > Mike Hammett > Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/> > <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL><https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb><https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions><https://twitter.com/ICSIL> > > Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/> > <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix><https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange><https://twitter.com/mdwestix> > > The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/> > <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp><https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From: *"Tom Beecher" <[email protected]> > *To: *"Mike Hammett" <[email protected]> > *Cc: *"Mel Beckman" <[email protected]>, "NANOG" <[email protected]> > *Sent: *Thursday, January 5, 2023 9:55:38 AM > *Subject: *Re: SDN Internet Router (sir) > > "The right tool for the job" gets into a religious argument in > assuming that one's way to do the job is the only reasonable way > to do the job > > > I disagree that it's religious. I completely agree there are locations > in networks that having full DFZ capable routers doesn't make > technical or economic sense. But there have long been different > products for those different use cases. > > To perhaps explain my viewpoint better,(and perhaps I didn't properly > comprehend the problem you're aiming to solve) : > > If you are trying to use SDN stuff to shuffle routes on and off a box > because you have the wrong sized routers in place, then I would argue > you're doing it wrong. > > If you are trying to use SDN stuff to (as Christopher mentioned) make > decisions that are not strictly LPM, and the equipment you have cannot > do that, then that's different and entirely reasonable. > > If the second use case is more of what you were asking, then I > apologize for misunderstanding. > > > On Thu, Jan 5, 2023 at 9:57 AM Mike Hammett <[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > > "The right tool for the job" gets into a religious argument in > assuming that one's way to do the job is the only reasonable way > to do the job. > > Large networks historically have a very poor (IMO) model of > gigantic iron in a few locations, which results in sub-optimal > routing for the rest of their network between those large POPs. > I've heard time and time again that someone buying service from a > major network in say New Orleans has a first hop of Dallas or > Atlanta. I agree that full-route capable routers need to be in the > large, central locations, but it isn't cost effective to have them > at every POP, especially if you're a last-mile provider. > > I'd go into more examples of where it doesn't make sense to have > full-route routers everywhere, but I'm afraid that the Internet > would then focus on the examples instead of the core idea of > intelligently putting routes into the FIBs of low-FIB routers > throughout my network. > > > > ----- > Mike Hammett > Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/> > <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL><https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb><https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions><https://twitter.com/ICSIL> > > Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/> > <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix><https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange><https://twitter.com/mdwestix> > > The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/> > <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp><https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From: *"Tom Beecher" <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> > *To: *"Mike Hammett" <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> > *Cc: *"Mel Beckman" <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>, > "NANOG" <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> > *Sent: *Wednesday, January 4, 2023 7:36:58 AM > *Subject: *Re: SDN Internet Router (sir) > > Disagree that it’s a line in the sand. It’s use the right tool for > the job. > > If a device is low FIB, it’s that way for a reason. There are > plenty of ways to massage that with policy and software, depending > on capabilities , but at the end of the day, trying to sort 10 > pounds of shit to store in a 5 pound bag is eventually going to > end up the same way. > > On Tue, Jan 3, 2023 at 13:18 Mike Hammett <[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > > There are likely more networks with 10 gigabit or less total > external capacity than there are with more. > > Creating imaginary lines in the sand doesn't really help anyone. > > > > > ----- > Mike Hammett > Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/> > <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL><https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb><https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions><https://twitter.com/ICSIL> > > Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/> > <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix><https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange><https://twitter.com/mdwestix> > > The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/> > <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp><https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From: *"Mel Beckman" <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> > *To: *"Mike Hammett" <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> > *Cc: *"NANOG" <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> > *Sent: *Tuesday, January 3, 2023 10:57:34 AM > *Subject: *Re: SDN Internet Router (sir) > > It’s not a problem, due to cheap, plentiful high-speed memory > and rapid prefix search silicon in backbone routers. The > entire Internet routing table consumes at most a few gigabytes > when fully structured (and only a few hundred Mbytes stored > flat). That’s less memory than your average laptop sports. > > > Even in the worst case scenario, where every network decides > to announce only its most specific prefixes, the BGP backbone > would temporarily enter an oscillating state that generates a > large number of routing updates into the inter-domain routing > space. In this case, BGP route damping will quickly suppress > the crazies while the backbone stabilizes. > > > Small routers should not be taking full tables, since there is > no point to them being in the default free zone. For large > routers, neither memory nor CPU speed are an issue. High-speed > routers operating in the default-free zone have a critical > path in the forwarding decision for each packet: it needs to > take less than the inter-packet arrival time for minimum-sized > IP packets. > > > This is easy to achieve with today’s hardware. A router line > card with an aggregate line rate across all of its > point-to-point interfaces of 10Tbps (readily available in > today’s gear) can process packets with just a handful of > cycles in the FIB Ternary Content Addressable Memory (TCAM) > using ASIC-assisted lookups. TCAM is the most expensive > component you’re paying for in such a router. It’s not cheap, > but backbone routers don’t need to be cheap. They just need to > not be memory-constrained. > > > -mel via cell > > On Jan 3, 2023, at 7:47 AM, Mike Hammett <[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > > > https://github.com/dbarrosop/sir > > I came across this over the weekend. Given that the > project was abandoned six years ago, are there any other > efforts with a similar goal (more intelligently placing > routes into FIBs of low-FIB capacity devices? > > > > ----- > Mike Hammett > Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/> > <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL><https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb><https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions><https://twitter.com/ICSIL> > > Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/> > <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix><https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange><https://twitter.com/mdwestix> > > The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/> > <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp><https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg> > > > > >
