If you can make it at all through that dense text I put up today, it's
about recursion and the Ackermann function and my use of it figures
directly. I have a great book here on recursive functions which I've used
on and off to the extent I understand it (a LOT is over my head). Best,
Alan
On Thu, 29 Oct 2020, Max Herman via NetBehaviour wrote:
This is great info Alan and Edward, thank you!
I wonder if Greer's use of it in a novel is unique in some way, to warrant
the prize. I've found some articles about Nabokov and Joyce using it.
Mainly wondering if it could be a compositional element in Leonardo's works,
and if yes what that would suggest. Leonardo as labyrinthist?
GEB has a chapter about recursion (it follows the one on consistency) which
I think might relate, so I will try to sift through that. It mentions the
concepts of "push," "pop," and "stack" as used in an early AI language "IPL"
so maybe those relate to the layers of the onion? I wonder if Dante used it
too; if so that would have been an influence on Leonardo for sure. It does
seem like the Hollywood style of plot takes a different approach. I wonder
if chiastic structure is more associated with antiquity? Perhaps it has an
inclination toward "contemplative aesthetics" like mandala and labyrinth as
opposed to -- not sure what, uncontemplative?
Definitely curious to hear if anyone has read Less. It seems to quote
Calvino a lot and the author lives in Tuscany as well as San Francisco, but
every reference is buried and hidden in an enormous jumble. Basically it
seems like a solid book of chiasmus in the form of a world tour of literally
everything. The work seems very ambitious in scope, to the extent that I
wouldn't be too surprised to see a "new chiasticism" or something emerge, if
such things still emerge.
The good part is that it's a comedy, about life going on, which is why it
was chosen for my book club I think! ?
____________________________________________________________________________
From: NetBehaviour <[email protected]> on behalf
of Alan Sondheim via NetBehaviour <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, October 29, 2020 4:00 PM
To: NetBehaviour for networked distributed creativity
<[email protected]>
Cc: Alan Sondheim <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [NetBehaviour] question about a novel and "chiastic structure"
Look at Hua-Yen Buddhsim, Flower Ornament Sutra, Angkor Wat, Borobudur, etc.
It's everywhere.
Same with Cathedral mazes etc.
Best, Alan -
On Thu, Oct 29, 2020 at 2:55 PM Edward Picot via NetBehaviour
<[email protected]> wrote:
Max,
I'm a big fan of chaistic structure - or the 'onion structure', which
is another term for the same thing. You work your way inwards through
various layers of narrative to reach the central point, then you work
your way outwards through the same layers again, ideally in reverse
order, to complete the story. There are examples of this kind of
structure in fairy stories - a princess who is exiled does kind deeds
to a bird, a toad and a fox, and then has to overcome a series of
apparently-impossible challenges in which she is helped by the fox,
the toad and the bird in repayment for her kindness. It's a very
useful alternative to the prevailing 'three act' structure of (for
example) most Hollywood movies, where everything is geared towards a
massive cliffhanger/climax/confrontation/resolution at the end. The
onion structure, by contrast, is more balanced, less end-heavy, and
the turning-point/crux of the story tends to be the bit in the middle,
the heart of the narrative, after which good luck turns to bad, the
protagonist starts to reap the rewards of her good deeds, etc.
I suppose things like mandalas (and possibly mazes) might be examples
of this kind of structure in the visual arts.
Edward
On 29/10/2020 18:00, Max Herman via NetBehaviour wrote:
Hi all,
My book club just read Andrew Sean Greer's novel Less, which won
the Pulitzer Prize for fiction in 2018. It seems to use a lot
of "chiastic structure," which is an A-B-B'-A' pattern used in
ancient literature. There are also some biological meanings of
the term (for vision and genetics).
I'd be curious to know if anyone is aware of chiastic structure
in visual arts or perhaps computer systems.
Interesting idea Ricardo about the Rethinking Humanity idea!
Will be interested to hear/see more.
All best,
Max
_______________________________________________
NetBehaviour mailing list
[email protected]
https://lists.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour
_______________________________________________
NetBehaviour mailing list
[email protected]
https://lists.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour
--
=====================================================
directory http://www.alansondheim.org tel 718-813-3285
email sondheim ut panix.com, sondheim ut gmail.com
=====================================================
web http://www.alansondheim.org/index.html cell 347-383-8552
current text http://www.alansondheim.org/xr.txt
_______________________________________________
NetBehaviour mailing list
[email protected]
https://lists.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour
