... let's go on,
i can't show thoughts simultaneosly, i have to do it sequencially even
if i think of them together...
1. the book and exhibition "eyes, lies, and illusions"
http://www.amazon.com/Eyes-Lies-Illusions-Art-Deception/dp/0853319138
http://www.southbankcentre.co.uk/visual-arts/art-on-site/past-exhibitions/eyes-lies-and-illusions
2. don juan's work over castaneda perception
3. verba mentalia, by william of ockham
we don't see what we don't recognize, what we don't have already
inwards, in mind, somewhere in mind...
is that what socrates used to say, that knowledge can't be taught, it
has to be recognized in order to re-know it?
4. why roschard drawings "have to be" symmetrical?
(i love that idea, by a german philosopher, i can't remember who, "it
must sein"; in fact i love it because i hate "itmustsein"-things)
... i'm a funny asymmetrical mess right now...
neil jenkins escribió:
On 21 Apr 2007, at 15:07, @-_q @@ wrote:
the program you talk is this?
http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/rmhttp/downloadtrial/radio4/inourtime/inourtime_20070419-0900_40_st.mp3
yes - make sure you download it soon, it'll be online till tuesday I
think
i hope i don't miss many things because it is in english, ajj
the last thing i've been thinking about was the fact of improvisation.
i wonder if it could be said that humans tend to improvise in symmetric
patterns
interesting thought, I'd say this is true in the case of many musicians
improvising, but then I'd say that music itself has an innate symmetry
through rhythm and tone, and in it's physical dynamic as a waveform (eg
double the wavelength and the tone moves down one octave, the sub
harmonics of a vibrating string appearing as recursively divided
vibrations of the overall note)
and...
this is stupid, but funny... i've been thinking about the new criatures
in science fict movies, for instance, and all them, as far as i
remember, are symmetric, no matter if they have body of man and head of
fish, or they resemble sort-of-horses... they all are symmetric. even
the characters of pixar's monsters s.a. were symmetric.
the program mentions our cognitive perception of other things that are
symmetrical - in nature this can be seen in recognition of other
animals for survival - eat or be eaten ! the symmetry of flowers and
bees sensitivity to this symmetry whilst having otherwise quite poor
visual perception.
When things that we concieve *should* be symmetrical are not, they
appear odd; if the non symmetry is subtle it is quite difficult to
describe what actually *is* odd about what we see; whether it be
reflective symmetry or rotational symmetry. In a more extreme case, say
an amputee, our brain becomes quite fascinated with the missing limb.
the mythical cyclops whilst appearing symmetrical plays this further;
the one eye upsetting our percieved idea of a face and thus making it
appear strange or unworldly.
Something not discussed in the program is the effect of environmental
factors on our visual perception, take for example the Müller-Lyer
Illusion where two lines of equal length appear different when
arrowheads are added, pointing inward on ne line and outward on the
other:
"Experiments reported in 1966 by Segall, Campbell and Herskovitz
suggested that the Müller-Lyer illusion may be absent or reduced
amongst people who grow up in certain environments. They tested some
Zulu people in South Africa who, at the time, lived in circular huts
with arched doorways and had little experience of Western rectangular
buildings. The Zulus seemed less affected by the Müller-Lyer illusion.
The argument is that these people lived in a 'circular culture' whereas
those who are more subject to the illusion live in a 'carpentered
world' of rectangles and parallel lines (Segall, Campbell &
Herskovits 1966). Europeans and Americans are more likely to interpret
oblique and acute angles as displaced right angles and to perceive
two-dimensional drawings in terms of depth."
[ http://www.aber.ac.uk/media/Modules/MC10220/visper04.html ]
lord voldemort is a symmetric criature, all rowling's immaginarium...
if there is any fiction criature asymmetric as siniestra, please, do
tell me...
neil jenkins escribió:
God symmetry wasn't discussed, although the
subject of religion came up when they talked about the Alhambra, saying
that as pictures of animals or anything with a soul were not allowed to
be depicted, they used geometric symmetry to express the infinite
complexity of god
I found some interesting historical references lookin at quadratic
equations in wikipedia [
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quadratic_equation ] which noted Turkish
and Indian mathematicians solving these equations, notable Brahmagupta
in the 7th century, who first discovered the negative solutions (ie the
square root of 4 is 2 or it's symmetric -2) he also popularised the
concept of the number 0
In terms of art, the discussion also raised the issue of artists and
their use of symmetry and also disrupting it. poetry has always had an
innate symmetry to me in phrasing and rhythm -
"Traditional meaning of symmetry
The meaning of this term went through a fabulous transformation during
its use for dozens of centuries. The proper translation of the Greek
term symmetria – (from the prefix syn [common] and the noun metros
[measure]) – is 'common measure'. The Greeks interpreted this word, as
the harmony of the different parts of an object, the good proportions
between its constituent parts. Later this meaning was transferred to
e.g., the rhythm of poems, of music, the cosmos ('well-ordered system
of the universe as contrast of chaos'). Therefore the Latin and the
modern European languages used its translations like harmony,
proportion until the Renaissance. In wider sense, balance, equilibrium
belonged also to this family of synonyms. Some way symmetry was always
related to beauty, truth and good. (These relative meanings determined
its application in the arts, the sciences, and the ethics,
respectively.) Symmetry was not only related to such positive values,
it became even a symbol of seeking for perfection."
[ http://symmetry.hu/definition.html ]
This program came at a perfect moment for me as i was re-working the
maths i'd used in the spirograp[h]d interface for Pall Thayer's PANSE [
http://130.208.220.190/panse/gallery.php ] - the complex set of sliders
aren't that easy to see in terms of a physical spirograph set and i
wanted to work out how to create the patterns by choosing outer ring
size, disc size and pen position - alot simpler to conceptualise.
last night i listened to the program again, and inadvertantly left a
Philip Glass track [ In The Upper Room: Dance IX ] playing, the
resulting mix was pure serendepity
:) inpsired
On 21 Apr 2007, at 11:06, @-_q @@ wrote:
neil, thanks a lot...
years ago, i wrote a short storie, sinister,
in spanish siniestra
which can be the name of a woman, a property of a sort of darkness, or
it can refer to left sides too...
that woman had a problem, a progresive sickness... her left side was
melting down, sort of melting down...
the idea shocked me so much that i made a drawing of a nude women sat
on a elegant armchair with her right side like a beautiful woman and
with her left side like a mess mass hunged at her right side of the
body.
this was funny, but there is more...
i've already share with you that i suffer dislexy, even typing, not
only writing... i change b and p
i'm really interested on the differences between our 2 cerebral
hemispheres...
marchall mc luhan worked with it, and each hemisphere have a property.
but the funny thing is that the capacity of language or motion or
making music is not placed simetric in our brain... or i have not the
right information...
....
did the speakers talk about god or a similar entity?
did they lucubrate about god symmetry?
as far as i've read (the 3 books and other religious text), god is not
worry about symetry, but he "created" a symmetric nature.
as far as i remember, no kabala writer wrote about the symmetric
event... sufi poetry or bagavad ghita...
... may be sacred music (christian, jew, sufi or hinduist...)
...
did gilles deleuze talked about symmetrics in the rizoma?
i did not find it.
i think we have french members in NetB that can know about it.
i mean, there may be members in NetB who know more about what i've
commented... if i'm wrong in any hypothesis, please, tell me, even if i
talk from the wrong point of view... the wrong place to watch at it.
---
in my creative work, i always break symmetry because i feel my brain
when it stands in front of asymmetries: i feel physically how it works
!
one of the things i'm doing is working at the input of sound: i record
my voice from left speaker to right speaker and so on, and that makes a
sort of brain massage... try it...
what my brain feels in front of symmetries is... relief !
and, for instances, drawing symmetric mandalas smooth me down
isn't it funny?
***
**
*
neil jenkins escribió:
tricky to transpose, but here goes..
early neolithic sculptures in regular forms, cognitive recognition of
symmmetric forms (by animals/humans and artists), cuniform, babylonian
maths and greek geometry, methods for solving (and working out)
quadratic and cubic equations (respectively) - (method and conic
sections), algebra in place of derived solution tables, mathematical
transformations and group theory (*no transformation is part of the
subset of symmetrical transformations, or 'operations' - nothing is
something.. ), the alhambra, bell ringing, the lack of a solution for
quintic equations and 'atoms' of symmetry - shapes divided by shapes,
indivisible symmetries
phew.. i won't start on the last 20 minutes and misquote einstein :)
On 19 Apr 2007, at 23:22, @-_q @@ wrote:
neil, if you go,
could you write just a little bit of what you heard there?
(pleasepleaseplease)
neil jenkins escribió:
http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/rmhttp/downloadtrial/radio4/inourtime/inourtime_20070419-0900_40_st.mp3
-->
SYMMETRY
Today we will be discussing symmetry, from the most perfect forms in
nature, like the snowflake and the butterfly, to our perceptions of
beauty in the human face. There's symmetry too in most of the laws that
govern our physical world.
The Greek philosopher Aristotle described symmetry as one of the
greatest forms of beauty to be found in the mathematical sciences,
while the French poet Paul Valery went further, declaring; “The
universe is built on a plan, the profound symmetry of which is somehow
present in the inner structure of our intellect”.
The story of symmetry tracks an extraordinary shift from its role as an
aesthetic model - found in the tiles in the Alhambra and Bach's
compositions - to becoming a key tool to understanding how the physical
world works. It provides a major breakthrough in mathematics with the
development of group theory in the 19th century. And it is the
unexpected breakdown of symmetry at sub-atomic level that is so
tantalising for contemporary quantum physicists.
So why is symmetry so prevalent and appealing in both art and nature?
How does symmetry enable us to grapple with monstrous numbers? And how
might symmetry contribute to the elusive Theory of Everything?
Contributors
Fay Dowker, Reader in Theoretical Physics at Imperial College, London
Marcus du Sautoy, Professor of Mathematics at the University of Oxford
Ian Stewart, Professor of Mathematics at the University of Warwick
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