where i said nit-picking, i meant attacking. not meaning to separate anyone out who has criticized what i said either :) (which was a fair criticism).
On 20/8/2009, i said: > >Hi all, thanks for sharing your thoughts on this, especially for not >nit-picking over everything i said. it was meant to be taken with a >pinch of salt, although the conclusions i expressed were 'what i >thought'. i'm not one though for taking my thoughts too seriously, or >i try not to, because i know a lot of my judgments are made without >knowing... are reactions albeit reactions based upon ideas which have >been running through my mind for quite some time now. anyway thanks for >the different viewpoints, i'm in a situation where it is rare to speak >about these kind of things, especially from a range of people as wide as >who have written on here about this. > >Cheers, >James. > > > >On 20/8/2009, "Pall Thayer" <[email protected]> wrote: > >>Simon, >>I was actually referring to James' original post where he states the >>following: >> >>don't fool yourself into believing universities are places >>of learning. like any institution in these modern times >>anything that they claim to be is just a front for making >>money. universities are about making money for the people >>who own them (whoever they may be), and if that gets in >>the way of genuine real world education, so be it. >> >>I was just pointing out that it's not fair to say that universities >>are a "front for making money" without also stating that the money >>being made is keeping the university in operation. >> >>Pall >> >>On Thu, Aug 20, 2009 at 7:42 AM, Simon Biggs<[email protected]> wrote: >>> Referring to Palls post I wasnt suggesting that Universities are getting >>> rich. Yes, they are non-profit usually. In the UK they are not even private >>> but public institutions funded from tax payers money (well, one Buckingham >>> - out of 130, is a private University in the form that an American would >>> recognise it). However, they cannot lose money either or they will close, >>> especially in the current climate where the UK Government has run out of >>> surplus funds. I dont know about the States but in the UK the situation >>> Alan described at Florida State is default, where each department has to buy >>> services from others and the centre. It is a form of internal market. If a >>> department loses money it has to claw it back somehow. There is little >>> latitude in the system. Healthy departments will usually have a range of >>> students from foundation through to PhD. This allows them to spread income >>> and risk but cross-subsidy between courses and programmes doesnt happen so >>> you cannot expect a profitable programme to support another. Courses, even >>> departments, do close down at quite short notice and as there is no concept >>> of tenure in the UK even senior staff have little job security when an >>> institution needs to down-size, as many currently are, they can be flexible >>> and do so quite quickly. >>> >>> I note that even at prestige US institutions, like Harvard, there are >>> similar pressures and radical solutions being implemented. >>> >>> Best >>> >>> Simon >>> >>> >>> Simon Biggs >>> Research Professor >>> edinburgh college of art >>> [email protected] >>> www.eca.ac.uk >>> www.eca.ac.uk/circle/ >>> >>> [email protected] >>> www.littlepig.org.uk >>> AIM/Skype: simonbiggsuk >>> >>> >>> ________________________________ >>> From: Ian Smith-Heisters <[email protected]> >>> Reply-To: NetBehaviour for networked distributed creativity >>> <[email protected]> >>> Date: Wed, 19 Aug 2009 10:02:49 -0700 >>> To: NetBehaviour for networked distributed creativity >>> <[email protected]> >>> Subject: Re: [NetBehaviour] naughty boy >>> >>> These is innaresting questions to me. I definitely think education is most >>> valuable for the connections it gets you. I would regard my education as a >>> complete waste if it were not for the job I got the summer after graduation, >>> which led to another job, which got me some training, which allowed me to >>> start a profitable consulting career. Whether that was worth 50,000 USD (I >>> got off cheap) is questionable. Being an engineer on the edge of Silicon >>> Valley, there are plenty of opportunities for stable 6-figure salaries and >>> "cash outs". I've passed up several positions in favor of part-time >>> employment that gives me a mix of financial stability and free time to >>> pursue my artistic interests. Doing this, I've noticed two ugly edges: 1) >>> Other artists disregard me as unprofessional because I haven't chased >>> grants. It's been a more efficient use of effort to just fund myself. Many >>> professional artists in SF are trustafarians, and don't need to worry about >>> the risk of living grant-to-grant. 2) I'm increasingly looking at combining >>> my art and my work--the work becomes more fun, the art becomes more >>> practical. Being a software engineer lends itself well to this mindset, as >>> I'm used to building things that I find elegant and beautiful, and yet that >>> are very useful. At what point, however, does the art become design? This is >>> an important business question: many of my clients are bonafide artists, but >>> is my "firm" a design firm? How do I market myself? How do I find jobs that >>> are fun and lucrative? -ISH http://idiosyncra.tc On Wed, Aug 19, 2009 at >>> 3:47 AM, Pall Thayer<[email protected]> wrote: > Oh, and I don't think it's >>> quite correct to say that Universities are > just out to make money. It >>> costs a lot of money to run a quality > university. The best way to get the >>> most for your money is to keep > going. Masters and Doctoral students are >>> far more likely to receive > grants and tuition wavers. It's perfectly >>> reasonable that > undergraduate students generally pay the most out of their >>> pockets > because they return the least to the university whereas advanced > >>> degree students can potentially bring added recognition and funds. > Most, >>> if not all, universities are non-profit organizations. So any > money that >>> comes in stays in. There aren't many people getting "rich" > off >>> universities. > > On Wed, Aug 19, 2009 at 10:17 AM, Simon >>> Biggs<[email protected]> wrote: >> There are intense Taylorist pressures in >>> society at this time and the >> current UK government is playing to that >>> tune. It is a pity. >> >> As for how academic institutions think yes, they >>> have to consider their >> bottom line. That means weighing up the costs and >>> likely gain for each of >> their activities. No institution can run an >>> activity at a loss for too long >> and it is always hard to argue for >>> cross-subsidy from profitable to >> unprofitable courses, especially in the >>> transparent costing regime that now >> exists (where departments and courses >>> have to pay for the internal>> institutional resources they use and then >>> break even or generate a surplus >> against other institutional activities). >>>>> >> However, it is important to remember that not all courses cost the >>> same to >> run. Chalk and talk, like Media Studies, History and many other >>> social >> science and humanities subjects, are relatively cheap to run, >>> especially in >> those institutions without strong tutorial based traditions >>> (that means most >> new Universities). Other courses are far more expensive, >>> sometimes by >> multiple factors. These include the creative arts, film and >>> TV, medicine, >> architecture, mathematics and engineering. But the fees >>> institutions can >> charge are not really variable, although the gearing >>> employed by HEFCE/SHEFC >> to calculate the annual grant is subject >>> sensitive. That goes some way to >> paying these extra costs but not all >>> the way. It is then a political >> decision whether to subsidise certain >>> subjects to ensure they survive. >> Currently creative arts subjects are >>> getting a relatively good deal. >> >> In Scotland we have no student fees so >>> the situation is very different to >> the rest of the UK. However, it is not >>> a bed or roses even for the >> students. The unit resource per student >>> here is falling in comparison to the >> UK and will fall further if UK fees >>> rise and Scotland sustains free Higher >> Education at the point of >>> delivery. This will be bad news for both>> institutions and students north >>> of the border as we will struggle to compete >> with the UK market, losing >>> our best staff and, eventually, students - who >> will follow quality, even >>> if it costs more. >> >> Personally I do not know what the solution for this >>> is expect wholesale >> reform of the system both sides of the border.. I >>> dont like the idea of >> students running up massive debts and am >>> comfortable with the redistributive >> aspects of paying for education >>> through general taxation. However, as mostly >> middle-class kids benefit >>> from HE access the question then is from whom is >> the money being >>> redistributed and to whom? In this context a graduate tax >> system (as is >>> run in Australia) might actually be fairer and more >> redistributive in >>> favour of traditionally disadvantaged socio-economic >> groups. >> >> It is >>> a difficut issue to untangle and I wonder if there ever was a golden >> age >>> of Higher Education? >> >> Best >> >> Simon >> >> Simon Biggs >> Research >>> Professor >> edinburgh college of art >> [email protected] >> www.eca.ac..uk >>>>> www.eca.ac.uk/circle/ >> >> [email protected] >> >>> www.littlepig.org.uk >> AIM/Skype: simonbiggsuk >> >> >> >>> ________________________________ >> From: Corrado Morgana >>> <[email protected]> >> Reply-To: NetBehaviour for networked >>> distributed creativity >> <[email protected]> >> Date: Wed, 19 >>> Aug 2009 10:58:15 +0100 >> To: 'NetBehaviour for networked distributed >>> creativity' >> <[email protected]> >> Subject: Re: >>> [NetBehaviour] naughty boy >> >> A recent radio4 article..some minister >>> discussing the cost of education.The >> gist: If a student cant afford an >>> education then they should look for >> courses which will guarantee an >>> income after the course. AAARRGGGHH!!! >> Educational institutes as we know >>> are businesses, they will taylor their >> courses to those that make money >>> and get students-art courses and especially >> media arts related courses >>> are being chewed up and mauled by increased >> student targets >>> (international and national) lower funding and critically >> for this >>> argument, higher student fees. If students who cannot afford >> courses are >>> vectored towards courses that will generate employment, such as >> was >>> mentioned apprenticeships, my fear is that this will create a more >> >>> taylorised and stratified class system-I think most have heard this before. >>>>> Those less well off will end up doing apprenticeships while the other >>> more >> well off will enter the more academic and creative stuff [trust >>> funds and >> old boy networks help]. This is a pattern Im see in arts >>> education already. >> I came from an immigrant, council housed, NHS, >>> breadline family and ended up >> going through further education the year >>> before student loans were>> introduced phew, would never have been able to >>> otherwise have completed or >> even started an arts education.. the other >>> options would have been a welding >> apprenticeship and the steelworks, all >>> noble but the equivalent of a slow >> painful death for me at the time. >>> (computer salesman nearly killed me as >> well!) >> >> The art scene that I >>> mix in is largely not trustafarian and wealthy. Bright, >> intelligent and >>> academic, a healthy mix of social backgrounds >> We might end up filling >>> Britains deficit of plumbers and bricklayers-some >> whose hobbies might >>> be art; some who genuinely contribute, create and >> evolve art. But >>> implicit taylorisation worries me, as does Sennet, for >> other reasons >> >>>>> Rant over.. >> >> C >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: >>> [email protected] >> >>> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Simon Biggs >> >>> Sent: 19 August 2009 8:20 AM >> To: NetBehaviour for networked distributed >>> creativity >> Subject: Re: [NetBehaviour] naughty boy >> >> Hi Alan >> >> I >>> wasnt trying to address that argument just questioning whether >> >>> education and work ethic are enough to facilitate a meaningful life. Yes, >> >>> decent health care is important. A degree of financial security highly >> >>> deslirable. >> >> The US spends more of its GDP on health care (16%) than >>> any other country in >> the world and yet is the only OECD country not to >>> have some form of >> universal care. The outcome of that is that average US >>> life expectancy is >> lower than the OECD average (even lower than the UKs >>> whose NHS costs 8% >> of GDP and has taken such a battering in the US >>> media recently). What Obama >> is trying to do with US health care looks way >>> overdue and only sensible. >> Those arrayed against him look like selfish >>> big business protecting its >> bottom line at the expense of the people. >> >>>>> Mind you, everyone admires American teeth ;) >> >> Best >> >> Simon >> >> >>>>> Simon Biggs >> Research Professor >> edinburgh college of art >> >>> [email protected] >> www.eca.ac.uk >> www.eca.ac.uk/circle/ >> >> >>> [email protected] >> www.littlepig.org.uk >> AIM/Skype: simonbiggsuk >> >>>>> ________________________________ >> >> From: Alan Sondheim >>> <[email protected]> >> Reply-To: NetBehaviour for networked distributed >>> creativity >> <[email protected]> >> Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2009 >>> 20:15:26 -0400 (EDT) >> To: NetBehaviour for networked distributed >>> creativity >> <[email protected]> >> Cc: Theory and Writing >>> <[email protected]> >> Subject: Re: [NetBehaviour] naughty boy >> >>>>> >> >> It's not instrumentalist; it's more fundamental. If you're crazy >>> with >> stress because of bad health care, little or no income, you just >>> don't >> function well. If you have students, I assume you're full time - my >>> two >> courses at SVA won't even pay the bills (adjuncts get next to >>> nothing). I >> have nightmares over this, migraines, etc. In other words >>> there has to be >> a modicum of feeling you're not going to lose your >>> apartment or your >> teeth, you're going to have some sort of stability >>> somewhere. I don't have >> that - it doesn't sound like 'naughty boy' does >>> either. >> >> - Alan >> >> On Wed, 19 Aug 2009, Simon Biggs wrote: >> >>> I >>> always feel guilty seeking to justify to students why they should >>> >>> persist >>> with completing their degrees, whether BA, MA or PhD so I >>> dont. They >>> often say they want a degree so they can get a decent job >>> and balance that >>> with their creative practice. They say they see me, >>> with a job and an >>> artistic career, as a role model. I point out to them >>> I left school at 15 >>> with no qualifications - to be a hippy. Other than >>> being an artist and >>> coincidentally securing various positions because of >>> my artistic >>> activities, >>> including my current one, I have never had >>> what I consider a real job in >>> my >>> life. Im just a good for nothing >>> artist at least in the eyes of the >>> taxi >>> driver or plumber I often >>> encounter (people with real jobs). It seems that >>> being good for nothing >>> can be more rewarding than being socially useful. >>> >>> I find it a >>> worrying that people judge themselves by whether they are >>> gainfully >>> employed or not. Everyone has something to contribute. We live >>> in >>> >>> societies, both poor and wealthy, that historically have tolerated >>> >>> significant percentages of their populations being what, in todays terms, >>>>>> we >>> would consider economically inactive. However, economic >>> inactivity does >>> not >>> mean a lack of productivity. There are so many >>> ways that people can >>> contribute value to themselves and those around >>> them without getting a >>> job. >>> I never wanted a job anyway! >>> >>> We >>> should not allow an instrumentalist view of life to become >>> paradigmatic, >>>>>> especially in creative practice. That is the death of the artist. >>> >>>>>> Best >>> >>> Simon >>> >>> >>> Simon Biggs >>> Research Professor >>> >>> edinburgh college of art >>> [email protected] >>> www.eca.ac.uk >>> >>> www.eca.ac.uk/circle/ >>> >>> [email protected] >>> >>> www.littlepig.org.uk >>> AIM/Skype: simonbiggsuk >>> >>> >>> >>> From: Alan >>> Sondheim <[email protected]> >>> Reply-To: NetBehaviour for networked >>> distributed creativity >>> <[email protected]> >>> Date: Tue, 18 >>> Aug 2009 13:25:23 -0400 (EDT) >>> To: Theory and Writing >>> <[email protected]> >>> Cc: <[email protected]> >>> >>> Subject: Re: [NetBehaviour] naughty boy >>> >>> My degree's in english, >>> which has been useless all >>> these years; Azure's is in environmental >>> conservation from NYU (mine's >>> from Brown). She hasn't been able to get >>> work; I teach from time to time, >>> part-time, and the stress is >>> incredible; I think about suicide, running >>> away with Azure, etc. etc. >>>>>> >>> >>> Edinburgh College of Art (eca) is a charity registered in >>> Scotland, number >>> SC009201 >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> | current internet text >>> file: http://www.alansondheim.org/qf.txt >> | Alan Sondheim Mail archive: >>> http://sondheim.rupamsunyata.org/ >> | Webpage (directory) at >>> http://www.alansondheim.org >> | [email protected], [email protected], tel >>> US 718-813-3285 >> ! http://www.facebook.com/alan.sondheim >> >> >>> ________________________________ >> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> NetBehaviour mailing list >>>>> [email protected] >> >>> http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour >> >> Edinburgh >>> College of Art (eca) is a charity registered in Scotland, number >> SC009201 >>>>> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> NetBehaviour mailing list >>>>> [email protected] >> >>> http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour >> >> Edinburgh >>> College of Art (eca) is a charity registered in Scotland, number >> SC009201 >>>>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> NetBehaviour >>> mailing list >> [email protected] >> >>> http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour >> > > > > -- > >>> ***************************** > Pall Thayer > artist > >>> http://www.this.is/pallit > ***************************** > >>> _______________________________________________ > NetBehaviour mailing list >>>> [email protected] > >>> http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour > >>> _______________________________________________ NetBehaviour mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour >>> >>> Edinburgh College of Art (eca) is a charity registered in Scotland, number >>> SC009201 >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> NetBehaviour mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour >>> >> >> >> >>-- >>***************************** >>Pall Thayer >>artist >>http://www.this.is/pallit >>***************************** >>_______________________________________________ >>NetBehaviour mailing list >>[email protected] >>http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour >> >_______________________________________________ >NetBehaviour mailing list >[email protected] >http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour > _______________________________________________ NetBehaviour mailing list [email protected] http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour
