hi kiilo I've been listening to steve keen as well - he has a very intelligent and shocking different view of the crisis. He believes the the speculative debts will never be paid back anyway, in the end, and governments are wasting public money trying to pay off these debts. Most of the debt is fraudulent anyway.
Something that appeals to me a lot is to trade things and skills amongst ourselves family and friends, to cut out all the nasty corporations, banks, governments from our lives. Sorry this is only my tiny contribution to a huge subject! dave On 15 September 2010 18:38, Tobias Hoffmann (kiilo) <[email protected]> wrote: > Hi ruth, > > well, yes the topic is quite a chunk to chew. Introducing currencies by > which means? Especial curtis showed in his documentary how our personal > desires where utilized by particular interests. Resulting in an atomized > society, lost of binding forces. Attention in this conetext is maybe a > difficult term, because allready occupied by advertisment, reality shows > ala "american idol" and the diverse "shopping experiences" (also in > their alternative variants). > > instead of writing a review about curtis "century of a self" some links: > * > http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcfour/documentaries/features/century_of_the_self_episode_4.shtml > quote [...] "The politicians believed they were creating a new and > better form of democracy, one that truly responded to the inner feelings > of individual. But what they didn't realise was that the aim of those > who had originally created these techniques had not been to liberate the > people but to develop a new way of controlling them." [...] > " > http://danielhaggard.com/10/the-century-of-the-self-bbc-documentary-by-adam-curtis-a-review/ > > and to Minsky - there is one intressting scholar in australia Prof. > Steven Keen running the blog debtdeflation.com. In difference to most > mainstream economists, he is able - with minsky - to create a > mathematical model of the crisis (differential equations - by an > economist - wow!). He shows there is a critical nmoment where the system > will collapse - the speculative debts where never able to paid back. And > the situation now is worse then in then 1929! - > also a link: > * http://www.debtdeflation.com/blogs/ > > You mentioned M. Bauwens also a good address. Saw his talk (by video > stream) at the conference "The internet as playground and factory". An > enlightning collection of thoughts, totally agree ... but also the > slides are quite a big "package": > * his slides > http://www.slideshare.net/mbauwens/the-politics-of-peer-production > * his website http://blog.p2pfoundation.net > > just read on his SITE: > quote [...] The final principle is the need to restore investments in > one another and our communities. While social bonds are not typically > thought of in economic terms, these connections, which scholars call > social capital, are a form of wealth that is every bit as important as > money or material goods. Especially in times of distress, people survive > and thrive by doing for one another. Interpersonal flows of money, > goods, and labor are a parallel system of exchange and savings. One > casualty of an intense market orientation is that community has gotten > thinner and human ties weaker. People haven’t had enough time to invest > in social connection outside their primary families. By recovering > hours, individuals are freed up to fortify their social networks. [...] > > what has this to do about a DIWO currency? I think the Crisis is caused > by a deeply wromg assumption what holds society together ... and i think > the key is to get this right. i vote for: > * collaboration instead of cooperation > * anticipation instead of attention > * at least: worktime is also a good reference for an abstract exchange > medium. > > > sorry if i answer with even more lengthy texts ... > > > Greets > kiilo > > > > > On 09/14/2010 08:09 PM, Ruth Catlow wrote: >> Dear Rob and Kiilo, >> >> >> Apologies for the delayed response I was busy farming daemons (great >> notion Rob:) >> Of course it is my ambition to rise to a position where I trade in >> daemon-farm futures. >> >> Kiilo great to bring minsky and curtis into the fray thou I fear your >> references are a bit bulky for me to process in my current >> information-overloaded condition. Are you able/willing to summarise what >> they might offer to the development of a new currency for DIWO-Art? I >> saw the excellent Century of the Self series a couple of years ago but >> can't remember what bearing it might have on this discussion. >> >> Rob I found Doctorow's Whuffie both onomatopoeiac and picturesque: ) >> >> I was recently at the http://payingattention.org/ conference which >> proposed that attention was the fundamental, contemporary currency for >> the networked age. Without attention it is impossible to share >> information, develop knowledge, reputation/status or even the softer >> more ephemeral, warm, fuzzy social experiences. >> >> However at this conference Michel Bauwens from >> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/ talked about Open And Free P2P culture. >> >> One of the things he talked about was a third revolution in productivity >> from extrinsic (first slavery then modernist exchange of valued stuff) >> to intrinsic motivation....where the carrot and stick are replaced by >> removing impediments to productivity and achieving a perfect >> co-ordination of collective social need with individual will, purpose >> and capacity. >> >> So in this case perhaps the perfect alternative currency would be purely >> symbolic. The exchange of its tokens could then be seen as an act of >> pure and joyous absurdity. >> >> : ) >> Ruth >> >> *From: * Rob Myers <[email protected] >> <mailto:rob%20myers%20%[email protected]%3e>> >> *Reply-To: * NetBehaviour for networked distributed creativity >> <[email protected] >> <mailto:netbehaviour%20for%20networked%20distributed%20creativity%20%[email protected]%3e>> >> >> *To: * [email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]> >> *Subject: * Re: [NetBehaviour] Local DIWO currency >> *Date: * Sun, 12 Sep 2010 20:12:29 +0100 >> >> >> On 09/12/2010 07:14 PM, Ruth Catlow wrote: >>> >>> Now we just need to work out what we think we have to trade. >> >> I'm reminded of Cory Doctorow's whuffie >> (https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Whuffie), >> <http://www.mail2web.com/cgi-bin/redir.asp?lid=0&newsite=https%3A%2F%2Fsecure%2Ewikimedia%2Eorg%2Fwikipedia%2Fen%2Fwiki%2FWhuffie%29%2C> >> which models a >> reputation economy. If art's an attention economy, we could trade >> attention Possibly I'm just saying this as my reviews would make me an >> attention capitalist. ;-) >> >>> Part of me feels that the energy that it takes to separate out the >>> potential value of any action (in the kinds of things we all do and >>> value) for transaction will be more than that the energy it takes to >>> produce the value (like Maxwell's Daemon fighting entropy). >> >> I like that comparison. Neoliberalism (a la Marc's mention the other >> day) is daemon farming... >> >> - Rob. >> _______________________________________________ >> NetBehaviour mailing list >> [email protected] >> <http://www.mail2web.com/cgi-bin/compose.asp?mb=inbox&mp=I&mps=0&lid=0&intListPerPage=32000&[email protected]&ed=xnKbjkjwE03BObiRdtZpCrc%2BmIq5u39l0%2BW0nENYfRtkgktuh%2FEQ3cGn1okaFRRUZIUvF5zA5H24%0D%0AWKZTTLeMlkOmTxrKGpCuM2BvnDc7v2P2l6Kizw5N9F9zaX5rpMDKqag%3D> >> >> http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour >> >> >> >> >> From: >> >> >> >> *Tobias Hoffmann (kiilo) <[email protected]>* >> >> >> To: >> >> >> >> <[email protected]> >> >> >> Subject: >> >> >> >> *Re: [NetBehaviour] Local DIWO currency* >> >> >> Date: >> >> >> >> Sun, 12 Sep 2010 22:14:27 +0200 >> >> >> >> >> >> i like this idea! >> >> the next crisis is coming for shure ... >> * reader steve keen >> http://www.debtdeflation.com/blogs/wp-content/uploads/papers/KeenAreWeItYetPaperFinal.pdf >> <http://www.mail2web.com/cgi-bin/redir.asp?lid=0&newsite=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Edebtdeflation%2Ecom%2Fblogs%2Fwp%2Dcontent%2Fuploads%2Fpapers%2FKeenAreWeItYetPaperFinal%2Epdf> >> >> * and >> http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/3908833/Adam_Curtis_-_The_century_of_the_self_-_BBC >> <http://www.mail2web.com/cgi-bin/redir.asp?lid=0&newsite=http%3A%2F%2Fthepiratebay%2Eorg%2Ftorrent%2F3908833%2FAdam%5FCurtis%5F%2D%5FThe%5Fcentury%5Fof%5Fthe%5Fself%5F%2D%5FBBC> >> >> especially the last episode!! >> >> >> greets >> kiilo >> >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > NetBehaviour mailing list > [email protected] > http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour _______________________________________________ NetBehaviour mailing list [email protected] http://www.netbehaviour.org/mailman/listinfo/netbehaviour
