Hi,

I was commenting on solution 1.


Andy

On Mon, Feb 8, 2016 at 11:57 AM, Lou Berger <[email protected]> wrote:

> Hi Andy,
>
> Thanks for the very good comments.
>
> Which solutions(s) were you commenting on -- you say "this" so is
> ambiguous.
>
> Lou
>
> On 2/8/2016 2:17 PM, Andy Bierman wrote:
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Feb 8, 2016 at 9:56 AM, Lou Berger <[email protected]
> > <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
> >
> >     Hi Juergen, (All)
> >
> >     I've change the subject line as I'm really commenting on all three
> >     documented options in this message.
> >
> >     On February 5, 2016 12:41:17 PM Juergen Schoenwaelder
> >     <[email protected]
> >     <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
> >
> >     > Lou,
> >     >
> >     > there are things I find fundamentally flawed and things I find
> >     > somewhat flawed. I do not understand why we need to mess around
> with
> >     > data encodings at all. I do not see what gets simpler by messing
> >     > around with the data encodings. Engineering decisions are usually
> >     > cost/benefit tradeoffs.
> >
> >     I completely agree with this statement, as a general statement. the
> >     motivation in this case is that users are saying that the current
> >     solution is inadequate. I think it behooves us to listen and see if a
> >     better tool can be provided that addresses the limitations raised.
> >
> >     > I see the costs, I am unsure about the
> >     > benefits.
> >     >
> >
> >     I think this is a question of perspective. I get that from a protocol
> >     standpoint, and possibly even language standpoint, why this
> >     discussion
> >     can  be considered unneeded complexity. I wouldn't even be
> >     surprised if
> >     the open config folks agreed with you, as the core of  their solution
> >     really doesn't need changes to the underlying protocol or language.
> >
> >     As I see it, there are three options on the table to address the core
> >     issue of OpState:
> >
> >     1. Do nothing in Netconf / restconf or yang, and leave it to  model
> >     conventions = openconfig draft
> >
> >     2. Extend Netconf / restconf , but not yang or models = Kent's draft
> >
> >     3. Use a language / tools based approach to augment models and
> >     automatically produce a form of option 1  style convention changes,
> >     without model definition restrictions. ~= Rob's draft (I'll assume
> >     changes previously discussed on list)
> >
> >     WRT 1: We've heard from the model development community, i.e. model
> >     writers, that 1 is doable but painful and easily done incorrectly. It
> >     also impacts other SDOs, i.e. non ietf model writers.
> >
> >
> >
> > This solution assumes that the overhead of retrieving data (while the
> > server
> > is applying config) does not impact performance.  IMO retrieving 2
> > separate
> > data trees and comparing them on the client uses a lot of bandwidth and
> > it makes the server even more busy, so applying the config will take
> > even longer.
>
> >
> > The only solution possible by replicating the YANG objects would be to
> > retrieve both trees and compare them on the client.
> >
> > I prefer a solution that does not involve any polling by the client,
> > such as a notification based solution.
> >
> > Since operations are data-driven in YANG, implementing a new RPC
> > is the same cost as implementing new YANG data nodes.
> >
> >
> > Andy
> >
> >
> >     WRT 2: We heard from the user community, at least a small number of
> >     representatives, that 2 alone doesn't address their needs.  But it's
> >     also clear that some in the WG would prefer Option 2 (and most/all of
> >     these are its coauthors.)
> >
> >     WRT 3: There's some discussion on how/if Option 3 might best meet the
> >     user requirements.  I think focusing on this approach on the list
> >     could
> >     be helpful.
> >
> >     One question I have for you, Juergen, and the other authors of 2 is
> if
> >     there are changes/improvements to 3 that you/the can see that
> >     would make
> >     acceptable? Note I am NOT asking which the authors prefer as this
> >     is clear.
> >
> >     For the authors of 1, I think it would be worth hearing if a
> >     language/tools based approach to populating the Applied Configuration
> >     information is workable for them.
> >
> >     Lou
> >
> >     > /js
> >     >
> >     > On Fri, Feb 05, 2016 at 07:52:33AM -0500, Lou Berger wrote:
> >     >> Juergen,
> >     >>
> >     >> How do you feel about the proposed modification on the table?
> >     (Leaving the
> >     >> model defined config leaves untouched and adding a -CFG or
> >     -metadata
> >     >> sibling node which would contain the additional automatically
> >     generated
> >     >> leaves.)
> >     >>
> >     >> Lou
> >     >>
> >     >>
> >     >> On February 5, 2016 7:24:29 AM Juergen Schoenwaelder
> >     >> <[email protected]
> >     <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
> >     >>
> >     >> >On Fri, Feb 05, 2016 at 10:09:37AM +0000, Robert Wilton wrote:
> >     >> >>Hi Juergen,
> >     >> >>
> >     >> >>I don't really follow your point.
> >     >> >>
> >     >> >>The solution is fully backward compatible - in that only
> >     clients that
> >     >> >>make use of the protocol extension would see the new
> >     encoding. Existing
> >     >> >>clients would continue to see the encoding as directly
> >     defined in the
> >     >> >>YANG schema, and a server would be able to support old and
> >     new clients
> >     >> >>concurrently.
> >     >> >>
> >     >> >
> >     >> >The YANG RFC details how data is encoded in XML. People have
> >     written
> >     >> >and deployed code against based on this RFC. I do not accept an
> >     >> >approach where an RPC option can simply request that the encoding
> >     >> >defined in the YANG RFC is ignored and replaced with a very
> >     different
> >     >> >encoding.
> >     >> >
> >     >> >/js (stating a clear opinion as a technical contributor)
> >     >> >
> >     >> >--
> >     >> >Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
> >     >> >Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen |
> >     Germany
> >     >> >Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <
> http://www.jacobs-university.de/>
> >     >> >
> >     >> >_______________________________________________
> >     >> >netmod mailing list
> >     >> >[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
> >     >> >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
> >     >> >
> >     >>
> >     >>
> >     >
> >     > --
> >     > Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
> >     > Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen |
> >     Germany
> >     > Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <http://www.jacobs-university.de/>
> >     >
> >
> >
> >     _______________________________________________
> >     netmod mailing list
> >     [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
> >     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
> >
> >
>
>
>
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