well I said I didn't want to start a flame and I sustained it. So just a
few considerations about simona's email.
after all I write a huge mail again, sorry, last time
First, I don't think that insulting people by email is something brave
or appropriate, I will not enter in that way. Also...I'm not interested
in "traditional" or "postmodern" categories...been "traditional" (I
don't think I'm am but ey!, you know me better) is an insult? Finally I
prefer to deal with things and not say "this is bad" or "this is good"
and those who don't think like me are fascist.
I'm not a Podemos supporter and, for sure, my statements where not in
the same direction. I support another kind of politics and been material
is not be a "podemita" This is important for me because I hate Podemos
mainly. So, I think that a few things you say regarding that, simply
needs at least another look. I'm agree (except with all the postmodern
rhetoric) all about simona says about Podemos. Mostly regarding their
spanish-national-paternalist position. For those who understand spanish
there's a very good debate here between Monedero (podemos
"intellectual") and Ramón Grosfogel on You tube (search ("monedereo
grosfogel").
Now, I would like to finish with some things.
*) I never disrespect people's fight. Not once in all my email or please
show me where and I will retract it.
*) Regarding the "refocus" and people voting: Aside all the emotions and
so on (I don't enter here) I simply observe one thing. With the results
in hand 40% of all census and 90% in favor of independence... I'm not
sure that people "from any ideological side (and I really mean any)"
went to vote. Perhaps I'm wrong but a lecture about this results could
be that they are more an expression of anger that any other thing, of
course among others. And in this line, you are right with the "people
wants to vote" statement. Anyway, I think that interpreting this results
is not our topic.
*) The symmetry affair: To say that both are corrupt (list, sorry for
taking too long in this) is not to say there's a symmetry. I think that
reader's know the difference between autonomic and Central Government or
can search in Wikipedia. But one of my arguments WAS on reflecting that
the Catalan government (the political stance) try to be in symmetry and
behave like a central government. Been supported by catalonian civil
society or not (more on this right above) from the
political-institutional perspective (wich was the perspective I
understand was the first email) this is a fact. I know the relevance of
civil society in all this but my focus was more "pedagogical". I don't
think that people here want a very specific spanish debate talking about
specific points.
there's an historical and legitimate independence struggle in Catalonia
that comes, at least, in the modern sense since the civil war. But we
can trace it far way beyond: in the King's speech last week, you can
read in the news that behind him (resuming) was a painting of his
ancestor (the first Borbón), who sweep away Catalan people (among
others). That was a good message from the king, fuck yeah!, peace and
love. So the civil society movement is old and strong.
I just want to stress that this civil society movement's (legitimate,
strong, old and transversal to class and ideology to some extents) it's
being to some extent instrumentalized by political parties (This is not
a "paternalist" or unrespectull view. More on this above) as a weapon.
In this trend, that's why they (in first stance) ALWAYS talk about
"independence referendum" (just look their demands until things get
really nasty (one month ago approx.) always was the "independence
referendum". Nor the "we want to vote". Please, find me a "we want to
vote" demand older than 6 months. That's why I was explaining the PDCaT
movement that, by the way "you" (lets say, Catalan society, please) are
not removing. THE ARE IN THE GOVERNMENT, TODAY.
With this in mind just a "futurology". Right now there's a "general" (is
not general, comes from political parties looking for votes, new
elections and more power) "dialog" demand and rallies claiming unity (a
non sense in this situation, Catalonia is broke, outside). And the
generalitat is claiming that 3º parties mediate (EU mainly) so...
a) To some extent, the Generalitat is creating that symmetry as far as I
get. The EU will not intervene (I really hope to be wrong, I'm not
telling what I want, I'm telling what I think is a plausible argument,
call me old-fashion) because right know in the EU: First, the right is
in charge but most important, second there's another independence
demands. I'm not going to list it (see Manuel Valls declaration
regarding this) again but it's remarkable that almost all are
territories with high level GDP. I'm not saying that THIS is the reason.
It's something that deserves analysis. Again call me oldie.
But the main argument is that if the EU mediate with catalonia they will
open a very dangerous door for them (the political status-quo: left and
right). Personally, I hope that catalonian people can hold, resist and
opens that door. I have a fear that this fuels extreme-right parties but
that's not the point. I insist in that I hope that catalonian people win
this.
b) Under my view if there's a pure civil society movement, with "truly"
civil disobedience (yes, I'm invoking Thoreau, Gandhi, Malcolm and so
on...classic, traditional and old-school) I don't understand why some
Catalonia politics are now looking for "dialog" or resigning to their
charges when they had to deal with the consequences. face the law and
assuming consequences is one of the most important things regarding
dissidence. Of course not all, but a good part of them are avoiding this
part.
According to catalonian transition law, if the "yes" option win, 48HS
later independence will be proclaimed. That time pass but there will be
a congress meeting (sorry for my English :) ) on Tuesday...more people
is demanding a "timing relaxation" to talk. In this point I would like
to stress this idea for the future.
IF this is not a top-down, there's no "instrumentalization" and the "we
want to vote" claim is true. IF the government offers more economical
autonomy or the Euskadi deal...they are going to refuse it.
Again, sorry, I'm not going to be engaged in this anymore because I'm
not in any political party (officially or extra officially) not I was
imposing my "feelings". My aim was to improve conversation and for sure
that I'm not here to be insulted.
So lurker mode again and...if you want to ask me anything, fell free!
Cheers to all!
El 07/10/17 a las 12:22, [email protected] escribió:
I'm sorry. I'm not very active in nettime. But I'm in Catalonia and
I've seen too many dangerously "traditional" analysis in this listthat
I need to intervene. I'm sorry I can't bring many details yet (I'm
trying to find time to write but I'm too busy with a very fast
realtime reality right now), but I'll try at least to bring a change
of perspective to analyse the situation.
I would like to ask for more caution and respect for the people fight.
To bring some element to refocus your perspective I like to remember
that the 1st of October over 2 000 000 people, nor radical, nor
corrupt, just people from any age - I've seen teenagers and very old
people crying when they succeed to vote after queening sin 5 in the
morning to defend the ballots-, from any ideological side (and I
really mean any) and even wanting the independence or not, all
together fighting online and offline for Democracy. Really. Catalonia
is not about independence. We are ready for a level of democracy that
we are not allowed to practice and the fight is about political freedom.
When the analysis is from above talking about how bad are the bad guys
from both sides and how people have no active opinion about that, it
is not reflecting the groving maturity of spanish civil society , is
avoiding the degree of self organization acheived on the 1 of October
in Catalunya and trying to depict a symmetry that could relax us but
that is just not real. There is no symmetry. There is [fast resum->]
1) repression and a fascist state; 2) people fighting in network
having greatly hacked institutions that are now force in some
interesting degrees to respond to the people (of course institution
are rotten - I don't think anyone here can imaging that could be
otherwise); 3) Podemos fighting for its own power and abandoning the
people.
[little note about corruption as an example: the difference between
Catalunya and Spain is that while in Spain the PP(most currupt party)
isstill massively voted, in Catalunya PdeCat have almost disappeared.
So not everywhere the act of voting is used in the same way.And the
false equality on the matter of corruption (of course both are
corrupt, but in Catalonia we are wining in the effort to desmatelit
and in Spain losing) in the discours it is a fallacy, one of the many
that are useful to Podemos but not to the people fight]
The analysis via the left respected categories it is helping Podemos
discours that it is not only wrong in the field of the analysis of
reallity but also , once more, destroying - with paternalismand
cooptate imposing their representativeness - the transversal effort of
the people to create a networked democracy that control their
institutions and political parties.
I hope I can be more specific soon.
If you are interested, I wrote some more here, before the catalan
referendum:
https://www.opendemocracy.net/can-europe-make-it/simona-levi/we-just-want-to-stop-pleading
Best,
Simona Levi
El 6/10/17 a las 19:08, chml escribió:
(excuse my english) and the long mail
Hello...I'm ussually a lurker of this mail list, but as I live in
spain (bot I'm not spanish, born in southamerica) it's my intention
to add some ideas to the debate not to start a flame! :)
read this as you read an skeptical opinion and lot of this are in the
news...spanish or international
Reading international press, apart from few exceptions, it's like
reading Spanish press. Bullshit. But also there's a situation in wich
"nobody knows what is going to happend". Regarding this I would like
to tell some things that there's no present in the mainstream media.
I will split it in points to organize it better and try to avoid
argumentative chaos)
*) Both governments, Central and Catalonian, are deeply corrupt:
a) Central government is the most corrupt party in all Europe (sic).
And still in government (that tells you a few things about the
conservative mind en Spain, but more on this later). And as in Spain
there's not extreme-right significantly parties, so PP involves a lot
of right-wing voters with different approaches (catholics,
ultra-catholics and spanish-nationalist, liberals and ultraliberals
and mostly but not all of Franco's nostalgics) that are separated in
another countries, so their representation and weight in politics is
different (not less, different). Also, due to the spanish transition
those who holds the power, symbolic capital and in a good proportion
economic power are mostly the same than in Franco's era.
b) Regarding Catalonian government two things:
b.1) At least one of the parties that run the government
coalition (Junts pel Si) is deeply flawed in corruption. At the point
that the need to refund the political party (with the same corrupts
inside, of course). This party was in government almost times since
Franco and represented, and still represents, the right capitalist
entrepreneurship bourgeois of Catalonia (you can take a look at the
Pujol family). This party never want the independence, but they used
that idea to exchange political stances, mainly with right-wing
governments. So they were always "moderate catalanist". (I'm going to
resume, excuse me)
This starts to change with Artur Mas government in the generalitat.
When he arrive imposes a lot of cuts and drastic measures due to the
economic crisis, this led them to several riots (in one of them the
mossos, catalonian police, took the eye of a woman with a gum bullet
(again, sorry for my english :)...
b.2) due to the first independence referendum and the political
crisis, in the next election according to the pools there were going
to loss the government. So they stated this joint venture (Junts pel
Si) with the support of ERC (Left republicans of catalonia) and,
outside the platform, CUP, anti-capitalist...you can imagine that. So
the only program was independance. It's important to know, regarding
this, that according to pools never in the history of Catalonia, not
once until now, the "yes" would be a winning option.
*) In this situation, Independence was a weapon, for both
governments, to still alive at the end of the day. Puijdemont asking
for things and exacerbating the situation (it was his mandate,
obvious). And on the other hand, for Rajoy's government two
observations.
a) Regarding the spanish electoral system, there's a prevalence for
votes outside of big cities, so voting in Madrid, Barcelona or Bilbao
worth much less than voting in Segovia, for example. If we take in
consideration this and that in Spain there's a bunch (but a bunch) of
older people you see that PP voters are: old people (+65 precisely)
and not for the main capital cities (except Madrid province, not the
city). So Rajoy's voters don't want to know nothing about and is in
Rajoy's interest to present himself like the "spanish value holder"
because that gives him votes (a lot) and almost guarantee their
government stability.
b) (this argument is on the news) The right in spain...and I'm
tempted to say that also the left, the don't know about wining...when
you win you give something to the other part. They only know to beat,
to destroy the other. In this sense the catalan government did know
that the referendum was going to be a fail but hey use it as a
negotiation weapon (this, I think, it's deeply irresponsible). This
is not a matter of referendum yes or no, I will you there soon. Is a
matter of a government using people's belif to exchange favors (Artur
Mas itself admitted this, with other words of course). Right now,
today, the central government pass a new law so companies can get out
of catalonia real quick...so well see what happends
So...let's say, this is like House of Cards, but real. It's
disgusting, but it is like this. This situation led to an
unprecedented polarization in wich (like in many other historical
events) those who are in the middle get punch for both sides
With all this, I will focus more on your email between lines.
El 06/10/17 a las 13:24, Patrice Riemens escribió:
Reading stuff in newspapers and others the last few days I am
getting increasingly shocked -
and worried, about what appears to be mainstream (media & politics)
opinion wrt the 'events'
in Catalonia.
What do you expect? They are media conglomerates! ;)
It boils down to something like 'Catalonians are nationalistic
fools, what they do is ramp illegal,
Spain's unity should be upheld and respected, Rajoy and state forces
act fully inside the
constitution and legality' etc.
The second part it's true, Rajoy and friends are acting inside the
constitution and the law. And that's the problem, that he is ONLY
acting inside the law and constitution when the situation and, most
of all, his position demands that he do politics. But again, the way
of doing politics for Rajoy is via the judges...because that's what
is keeping him in "alive".
And the media...well, they are in most cases following the trends.
EU stands aside, while European leaders fall over each other to
support the Rajoy regime -
with sole exception Belgium's Michel, who's probably got 'his ears
cleaned out' (Dutch loc)
by now ...
Obvious...the EU condems the police brutality but says that is an
internal problem and should be solved with the constitutional
law...IF the EU gets involved, think what would happend with Córcega,
Euskadi, Baviera, Belgium (that why Michel talks!, Scotland
again...and the ones I', forgetting).So...personally, I hope they get
involved, because I think that the EU is a fail like this, Spain
needs a new constitution that leaves behind Franco a all the
dictatorship past and catalonian people deserve to vote a referendum.
But again...at least if in Spain we don't have an old people
gonocide, i doubt this would happen. Also, hope I'm wrong
The insane brutality of the Spanish police is papered over, just as
is the political
steering of the 'independent' justice, but far worse, 3 centuries of
oppression, culminating
in 40 years of ultra-Castillian Franquist oppression, which almost
wipped out above ground
Catalan language and culture, and finds its thinly veiled admirators
in Rajoy's Partido
Popular, are all completely forgotten.
Yes, but not only catalan! Basque people, Murcian people...in Spain
there's a lot more than the "catalan-radicals" wich, under my humble
opinion they are not the "most" rebel in spain, sorry. In Murcia for
example the PP governs, but those people have a long anarchist
tradition. Franco¡'s regime not only wiped out catalanist...they
wiped out half spain and in concrete parts, more (in Euskadi, but
also in Madrid and Galicia). So for internal distribution that makes
less difference that outside perhaps. With this I'm not saying that
there's no catalan singularity, I'm saying that there's not the only
one for sure.
And never mind millions of Catalans braving extreme odds to exercise
what is the most
fundamental democratic right: to vote and be counted. But does the
mainstream care for
democracy any longer?
Yes and this is another lesson that we have learned I think. In first
place the most iconic moment for democracy is voting and the media
don't cover that well. That's (in my view) because we are not in
democracies anymore since long time ago. And on the other hand,
honestly, this referendum idea was not executed in good ways.
finnally, voting for what you want, when you want and wathever you
want is not a democratic right in contemporary democracies...I don't
now none that says that ;)
With a mainstream like that, who needs extremists and terrorists for
the descent into the
unknown? And if Madrid indeed pulls out the 'nuclear option',
Article 155 of the Spanish
Constitution: total take over over Catalonia - and Madrid is on the
verge of doing so, I´d
say: pack up for the beach - or Barcelona.
Please, don't say Madrid...there a bunch of people in Madrid who
fight with catalonian people, wants changes and support the referendum!
Finally...if you reach that point I would ask a question:
Don't you miss, in all this, material politics? let's say...instead
of "transversal", "cultural" and "indentitarian" politics. Some
really left and material politics to improve people lives and
wealth?. Because I can tell you that this is a "must" not only in
Catalonia, and if they get their independence in this way, they are
going to be (unfortunately) economically really fucked up.
Cheers all the same from Christiania, bit of a weird place in this
context.
Cheers from a Madrid citizen staying in Ankara!
and yes...would love to be there!
p+2D!
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