Trust me, race and gender are not social ghosts. They have extremely material consequences.
On Fri, Nov 2, 2018 at 12:48 AM Alexander Bard <[email protected]> wrote: > Dear Justin > > Was Karl Marx an idealist or a materialist? I'm perfectly happy to leave > that for you and others to decide. Because I'm a pragmatist and my ideas > are pragmatist and the rest is just wordplay to me. I'm interested in > factual truth and in whether something works or does not work. I'm also > interested in opinion being challenged on its own merit. Therefore I > radically separate person and opinion. The whole idea that who speaks > affects the value of what is being said is just value relativism of the > worst kind. I know this is a popular kindergarden game among identitarians > of both the extreme right and the extreme left (as if "being seen and > heard" must be divided equally among some five-year-olds). Because I can > see no other value in this habit than infantile attention-seeking. Which > means it is in itself victim-seeking and therefore victimhood-encouraging > and certainly not heroic and empowering for anybody. And I can't think of > anything less Marxist than that. As I said, identitarianism is Rousseau > through and through. How it even sneaked into "The Left" beats me. > > Everybody should radically be allowed to speak and each argument should be > judged on its own merits, not according to who forwards it. That > strengthens the overall the debate the most. That is if you're interested > in debates having successful and productive outcomes. At least I am. > Anything else is just a waste of valuable time. So does race exist? Yes, it > does, undeniably, but only as a social ghost. My brother and I had no idea > one of us was black and of us was white until we where 14. We had no idea > we ought to have cared. Now we can spend our entire lives going on and on > about social ghosts and, like David pointed out, end up being the very > people who defend and keep the social ghosts the most and the longest. > However I find that tragic. I want to move on. And class being firmly tied > to capital and power is therefore the factual overarching category under > which we can then deal with minor issues like race and gender. Effectively. > Now if that is not a materialist argument as much as an activist one, then > I don't know what is. If anything is idealist and not materialist it must > certainly be the obsession with social ghosts. But sure, the I and the M > labels are yours to decide. I could not care less. > > Best intentions > Alexander > > Den fre 2 nov. 2018 kl 04:00 skrev Justin Charles < > [email protected]>: > >> Coming in late to this thread but the anti-identity current that's >> growing more and more prevalent on the left lately seems to be somewhat in >> opposition to contrary to materialism. To say that "class is class and >> only class has universal validity" strikes me as pretty idealist, not >> materialist. OneWhile race may not exist to Alexander Bard and Candace >> Owens, I'd argue that maybe it doesn't exist for them because materially it >> need not. Alexander is a white man. Candace Owens, while a black woman, has >> a class position that allows her to skip some over much of what it looks >> like to be black for most black people, who aren't well-compensated >> conservative (or liberal) commentators. Most black people's class position >> is deeply intertwined with the color of their skin. I don't think I need to >> go into the historical reasons for this. I'd also say that Asad Haider's >> book was in no way championing victimhood. If that's what one takes away >> from it then they've read an entirely different book than I did. >> >> On Sun, Oct 28, 2018 at 12:05 PM tbyfield <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Ian, this idea of 'civility' should be unpacked a bit, because the ~word >>> lumps together a disparate range of concerns. At its worst, a lot of >>> babble about civility boils down to is tone-policing, which relies on >>> etiquette as an all-purpose tool for micromanaging rhetoric — and in >>> doing so, limiting and even delegitimizing positions of every type >>> (subjective, relational, political, whatever). In other contexts — >>> notably, in 'centrist' politics in the US — it serves as a rationale >>> for institutionalist pliability: 'bipartisan' cooperation, etc. But >>> those two uses are very different from its function as a foil for the >>> frightening prospect of outright political violence. These different >>> strands, or layers if you like, are hopelessly tangled, and that >>> confusion in itself has serious consequences — hence the culturalist >>> use of the word 'strategy,' which often is used to get at the nebulous >>> realm in which individual behavior aligns with (or 'is constitutive of') >>> abstract, impersonal forces. That's a very roundabout way to get at the >>> obvious problem, which is the direct way that increasingly uncivil >>> political discourse foments violence. And, in a way, that's the problem: >>> the left's path for translating ideals into political practices is >>> hobbled and misdirected at every stage, whereas for the right it's >>> becoming all too direct. >>> >>> My gut sense is that Land is symptomatic of the left's repudiation of >>> force — violence — as a legitimate form of politics. Some, like him, >>> sense that and embark a theoretical trajectory that tacitly accepts or >>> even actively embraces violence. I'll leave that there, because I don't >>> want to debate it or even to see a debate about it on this list. Nettime >>> is fragile, and decades of accumulated effort could be poisoned with a >>> few, um, 'uncivil' messages. There was a time when the solution was >>> widely said to be more speech, but at a time when 'more speech' means >>> trollbot networks that systematically and strategically subvert civil >>> contexts I think that rule is more problematic than ever. >>> >>> As for Bard, whenever his mail appears in inbox my first reaction is >>> "When's the new book coming out?" But that's a rhetorical question — >>> no answer needed, thanks. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Ted >>> >>> >>> On 28 Oct 2018, at 10:48, Ian Alan Paul wrote: >>> >>> > Brett - I don't think that the problem of the Left is that we don't >>> > spend >>> > enough time with people who think it's worthwhile to discuss the >>> > potential >>> > virtues of "Candace Owens, Nick Land and/or Adolf Hitler." If >>> > anything, the >>> > Left needs to thoroughly rid itself of the liberal and depoliticizing >>> > notion that we should all simply get along in the name of preserving >>> > civility, esp. in a historical moment while fascist gangs are >>> > literally >>> > roaming the streets beating up migrants, synagogues are being shot up, >>> > and >>> > pipe bombs are being mailed to politicians. >>> > >>> > I don't think Alexander's ideas are worth engaging with or even >>> > refuting to >>> > be entirely honest, as I hope is obvious to most people on Nettime by >>> > this >>> > point. We live in times that are too extreme and urgent to expend any >>> > attention or energy dialoguing with disingenuous apologists for the >>> > Right . >>> <...> >>> # distributed via <nettime>: no commercial use without permission >>> # <nettime> is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, >>> # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets >>> # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l >>> # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: [email protected] >>> # @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject: >> >> >> >> -- >> Justin Charles >> 862.216.2467 >> # distributed via <nettime>: no commercial use without permission >> # <nettime> is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, >> # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets >> # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l >> # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: [email protected] >> # @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject: > > # distributed via <nettime>: no commercial use without permission > # <nettime> is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, > # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets > # more info: http://mx.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l > # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: [email protected] > # @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject: -- Alice www.alicesparklykat.com insta: @alicesparklykat <http://instagram.com/alicesparklykat>
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