First off, my piano guy is a complete wack-job. A neat guy as eccentrics go. His field is the restoration and maintenance of Aeolian Duo Art pianos. (think concert grand) # last made in 1930, these are "player pianos" of the very highest sophistication. Capable of reproducing every nuance of a performance. For a sample of the quality of reproduction, listen to the Nimbus CD of Robert Schumann piano works by Harold Bauer and Percy Grainger. Both artists died before modern recording techniques but they did record for the Duo Art piano. That way we can hear them play as they did and be recorded in digital. The catalog # is NI 8804. simply stunning... When he gave me a tour of his shop, I saw his wire spools and asked about sizes. I had done some work for him and he repaid me with 3' lengths of every size wire I could use.We are not close friends or any such. Never even got his last name. He lives in my old 'hood. I can get in touch with him. Now as far as the #38 jet goes, it only supplies a fine mist and doesn't have to fill a swimming pool. How big is the orifice in a spray can ? Yes, jets are expensive. I've seen the process and it blows my mind that they are drilled from both sides at the same time. There is one axial hole of .0011 and several cross holes to allow air to mix with the fuel. My reference to the shop manuals is because the piston to cylinder clearances are also expressed to the fourth decimal point giving a range of .0003"~ .0020" with a wear limit of .004" You can tell me that no motor can run at those specs. Wouldn't be the first person to do so . I build at .0012". They run fine. On a chilly day, I can hold the piston in my hand for few minutes and just from the heat of my hand, the piston will be a VERY tight fit in the room temp cylinder. The precision of Honda motors is quite amazing. Assembly standard fit for a Kawasaki is the same as a worn out Honda. (they use .0025") I have had considerable trouble finding machine shops that will work to Honda spec. # pistons from Honda are so uniform that the variations are outside the range of my micrometer. I only have to give one and the cylinder block to a machinist with the clearance spec. Whatever, the purpose of all this is to make sure the jet passageway is open. Bottom line. If it wasn't so soft, a single strand from common zip cord might even do.
--- On Sun, 5/31/09, Mark Hasslinger <[email protected]> wrote: From: Mark Hasslinger <[email protected]> Subject: [Nighthawk Lovers] Re: 700SC carbs question To: [email protected] Date: Sunday, May 31, 2009, 4:15 AM No I haven't seen a factory shop manual. I have found errors in factory shop manuals from every country that makes machinery though so I can't attest to the validity of the Honda Factory Manual, it may very well be wrong, it may be right. What I'd like to investigate is your source for piano wire. Can you give a link, phone number, street address, to him or to his source for music/piano wire. Is your piano guy a reseller or a manufacture of wire. Maybe I'll learn something! Do you have a #38 jet available. Maybe I'll go to one of the local Honda dealers here and check it myself. It doesn't seem physicaly possible for a hole .0011 Dia. to be able to pass enough volumn and the feasibity to manufacture is costly the jets must cost a fortune. Paper is .0034" or 300% greater in thickness than your number. Human hair, Black or dark in color is around .004"/.003" Dia., Blond hair can be as small as .002" or about double your .0011". Something just doesn't seem right here. How many holes does a #38 jet have? --- On Sat, 5/30/09, Dennis Hammerl <[email protected]> wrote: From: Dennis Hammerl <[email protected]> Subject: [Nighthawk Lovers] Re: 700SC carbs question To: [email protected] Date: Saturday, May 30, 2009, 10:51 PM Have you ever seen a factory shop manual ? Just wondering. They must be wrong on all those specs. My piano guy has two smaller sizes than what I use. I guess he's wrong too. --- On Sat, 5/30/09, Mark Hasslinger <[email protected]> wrote: From: Mark Hasslinger <[email protected]> Subject: [Nighthawk Lovers] Re: 700SC carbs question To: [email protected] Date: Saturday, May 30, 2009, 8:49 PM also the standard tolerance on pin gages is 0002" (that's two tenths of an inch) the tolerance can be applied on the plus side or the minus side. An eleven thousandths diameter pin gage on the plus tolerance would be from .0110" to.0112" or a maximun size of eleven thousandths and two tenths. An eleven thousandths diameter pin gage on the minus tolerance would be from.0110" to .0108" or a minimum size of ten-thousandths and eight tenths. music wire tolerance are another story but this should clear up the confusion. --- On Fri, 5/29/09, Dennis Hammerl <[email protected]> wrote: From: Dennis Hammerl <[email protected]> Subject: [Nighthawk Lovers] Re: 700SC carbs question To: [email protected] Date: Friday, May 29, 2009, 9:12 PM The actuall size of the hole in a slow jet (#38) is .0011" That's eleven ten thousands of an inch. No typo. --- On Fri, 5/29/09, Mark Hasslinger <[email protected]> wrote: From: Mark Hasslinger <[email protected]> Subject: [Nighthawk Lovers] Re: 700SC carbs question To: [email protected] Date: Friday, May 29, 2009, 9:32 AM That's .011 wire. "a .0011 wire" would not allow gas to pass. Is this a typo or are you really mistakenly looking for this wire in a set wire? If you have a wire set look again,maybe. --- On Fri, 5/29/09, Dennis <[email protected]> wrote: From: Dennis <[email protected]> Subject: [Nighthawk Lovers] Re: 700SC carbs question To: [email protected] Date: Friday, May 29, 2009, 1:18 AM I didn't pass a .0011 wire through the slow jets - didn't have one. Recall, this problem came on rather suddenly; one day it was running the way it had for a year and the next I wondered if I would be able to make it home because is had so little power. I'm not sure if that's significant but it seems like it should eliminate some things. When it runs, there's no popping of backfiring and anything. It's regular - just very weak. I'll open the screws on each float-bowl and confirm there's have fuel tomorrow. Dennis - Seattle -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Dennis Hammerl Sent: 28 May, 2009 21:29 To: [email protected] Subject: [Nighthawk Lovers] Re: 700SC carbs question That's scary stuff... flash point is too low. You could be hurt. After a few minutes of run time, shut it of and open those screws a bit (the one you sent a picture of) and see if fuel runs out. this way we insure that each bowl is filling. I'm assuming that you passed the .0011 wire through each slow jet ? I'm starting with some basic stuff here. Does this pop or anything? just sounds flat ? --- On Thu, 5/28/09, Dennis <[email protected]> wrote: From: Dennis <[email protected]> Subject: [Nighthawk Lovers] Re: 700SC carbs question To: [email protected] Date: Thursday, May 28, 2009, 11:51 PM Dennis, It is very flat seeming when it runs. I haven't run it long enough to let it fully warm up. But, during the time I have run it, I use about half choke and a bit of throttle to keep it running or else the RPMs drop so low it stops. When I've got it going and I give it throttle, it comes up slowly and with little enthuiasm. I've run it up to about 3500 and it sounds pretty different than it would if it were run up to 3500 when it is running right. I have some spray starter fluid - would that do? Dennis - Seattle -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Dennis Hammerl Sent: 28 May, 2009 20:39 To: [email protected] Subject: [Nighthawk Lovers] Re: 700SC carbs question Your plugs are indicating a lean condition.(ideal is somewhat brown) Not unexpected given being loose. Loose plugs do not transfer heat as they should. Effectively rendering them about one heat range more than they should be. It would appear that they all were firing. However, I will wait to see what you have to say about that. A 700s running on two out of four would be a very flat sounding, poor running thing. Do you have a spray carb cleaner ? Idle the motor and push the boots aside a tiny bit and spray a bit into each carb throat and observe the reaction. If it picks up or garfs a bit. --- On Thu, 5/28/09, Dennis <[email protected]> wrote: From: Dennis <[email protected]> Subject: [Nighthawk Lovers] Re: 700SC carbs question To: [email protected] Date: Thursday, May 28, 2009, 11:17 PM Dennis, Thanks as always for sharing your advice. Tommorrow, I'll see which plug wires are sparking. I did use the strong light method of evaluating the butterfly valves and the one I adjusted was a better match when I was finished. I wondered if taking the cables off at the grips was the right thing to do to gain extra length. I didn't do it that way and it was a very tight business to do it the other way but, ultimately, it worked. Next time, I'll take the cables loose on the other end and make things easier. I just walked out and had another look and now I see where to connect the manometers. Does make a lot more sense than trying to connect them to the bottom of the float-bowls, eh <smile>? Dennis - Seattle -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of [email protected] Sent: 28 May, 2009 19:53 To: [email protected] Subject: [Nighthawk Lovers] Re: 700SC carbs question The OEM exhaust is a balanced affair. So dismiss any thought of a diagnosis in that fashion. Please do check for spark at all plugs before we go tearing into anything else. When you have determined that, get back to me. The procedure to check out an ignition issue on a system like that is something that will take time to write out. Only if I have to. The vacuum take-off point is at the screws on the intakes. Same place as the vacuum take-off that is used for the petcock. The hoses are plugged into adapters on one, three and four, the petcock take-off on two. Understand ? You have to remove the screws and thread in adapters. Did you use a strong light to determine that a throttle plate needed to be moved ? Graham, the "pressed in jet" is not to be removed. There are only two. Remember to clear the slow speed jets with the .0011" wire. As far as R&R of the carb pack, it is best to start at the grip and remove the cables to insure enough slack at the carbs. The air box can be slid back quite far to allow space, just takes some effort. Liquid soap, WD-40, or silicone spray makes for a much easier time popping the boots and intakes off and on. Kyle takes the bolts out and pulls the intake manifolds out with the pack. I have no problem with that method. --- On Thu, 5/28/09, Graham Rogers <[email protected]> wrote: From: Graham Rogers <[email protected]> Subject: [Nighthawk Lovers] Re: 700SC carbs question To: [email protected] Date: Thursday, May 28, 2009, 10:17 PM I haven't put the carbs back on my 700SC yet - I'm afraid to! I put the carbs back on my CB750F and it ran like before! Graham On May 28, 2009, at 9:28 PM, Dennis wrote: Well, I finished putting my 700SC back together today and started it up - and it ran just as before. It feels like I have two cylinders firing and two not - but that's a guess - I haven't watched the spark plugs spark to prove it. I have the stock dual exhaust and it seems to me like both mufflers feel the same. So for either muffler, one cylinder's hitting and one's missing. Does that make sense? Dennis, I'm keen to focus now on the coils if you still think that's the most likly target to investigate, Can you tell me your thoughts again about how to test them out? I had a look at them today but I didn't see anything obvious like broken or shorted wires. Cheers! Dennis Gallagher - Seattle - '85 & '86 CB700SC --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Nighthawk Motorcycle Lovers!" group. 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