Stanley, Yep, that looks good from here now. Dennis G. - Seattle -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of stanley/ Randolph Sent: 29 August, 2009 10:43 To: [email protected] Subject: [Nighthawk Lovers] Re: 83 cb650sc cam chain tensioner parts - difficulty finding
Is this any better? I had to delete everything and it still would not give me a larger font size. It would default back to the previous font and size when I typed the first letter. Wierd! PB is better than WD 40, but motor oil is even better. _____ From: Creative Residential Designs <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 12:25:59 PM Subject: [Nighthawk Lovers] Re: 83 cb650sc cam chain tensioner parts - difficulty finding I have been using PB penetrating fluid for those rusty tough bolts lately. It's great stuff and is much better than W-D 40. I just spray some on and let it sit for about 15 minutes for the really tough ones. I have gotten used to having a can of that next to me for every build. It sure saves me from a lot more work on my builds. When I replaced the cam cover gasket on my first Nighthawk 3 years ago I broke a cam cover bolt off and ended up leaving it that way. I just siliconed the top part in to prevent rust and moisture from getting down in there. Now I'm putting that whole new top end on and I'm going to be more careful. The allen bolts are the best way to go for sure. I got an impact hammer at a yard sale a few weeks ago and had to use it a few times. They are great to have for these old projects. HotrodMamma. (Learning as-I-go!) ----- Original Message ----- From: stanley/ Randolph <mailto:[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 10:15 AM Subject: [Nighthawk Lovers] Re: 83 cb650sc cam chain tensioner parts - difficulty finding Something wrong with the selection process, I believe. I had typed in 10-point and it was probably 8. Now, I believe it's 8 and I typed in 10. Maybe you will receive it as 8. Point taken. It could be partly the threads as well, going into aluminum with steel. Whereas the Germans - and U.S. - use a coarser thread after a certain size, the Japanese continue to use a very fine thread and it is usually very difficult to remove the bolt or nut in question if it has been factory installed and in place for a few years. I have not had any experiences with broken bolts or studs with the Jap cars I have worked on, nor the bikes; however, I didn't like the idea of using philips head screws to hold the cases together like on the first step-thru 50s. I liked Ducati's allen bolts better. You had to use a hammer and impact driver to both remove and reinstall the screws on Hondas. I started working on engines back in 1960 and worked on bicycles before then. Back then one could go to Western Auto and purchase ball bearings for bicycle wheels. Now one buys a race with the bearings in it; but there is a local firm that sells all sizes of bearings, as I used to go to them to purchase new bearings for Beetle halfshafts when I rebuilt them. That was before Rockwell (for one) started training and supplying local firms with a package to "remanufacture" them. As for softer steel, well I still believe that it is in the grade they choose to use. I am not qualified to answer that, but I know someone who reads the grade and can supply you with a softer or equal or harder steel, depending on your needs. I don't know if you have ever attempted to drill a flange hardened to assure that it maintains its position, but anything to do with holding the throttle steady or even the choke plate - too hard to drill. Other flanges are so soft as to bend when pried. My point is, it is same with bolts, nuts, and screws. The next point is, one does not have to drill broken bolts out if one uses finesse in attempting to remove them. VWs use steel 8mm studs for the exhaust and as you might imagine they do corrode and to compound the matter they are in a magnesium alloy, not aluminum. When I first started attempting to remove those rusty nuts from the equally rusty studs, I broke off many. I complained to an older machinist I did business with about it, and he told me there was no reason to break off the stud in removing the nut, MOST of the time. I learned his methods and no longer brake off bolts, nuts, or whatever, unless I want to. Most of the time... That was some 33 years ago. BTW, WD 40 is not a good lubricant to be using to loosen rusted-in fasteners. It is good to wash away the rust and grime and any dirt (as in dirt bikes), but it is poor as a lubricant. Motor oil is better, and works most of the time. Heat helps, as well. I can't remember the last time I used an easy-out; however, I will have to do something to remove the broken-off, defective exhaust studs from my 250, which broke off on one side at about 1,000 miles, leaving the exhaust a little louder than stock, with a leak at the port. That's only a 7mm stud, and I suspect that, like VWs, the torque should not be over about 5 ft-lb. I never torqued them, had no reason to. On VW exhaust, if I remember correctly, it is about 7. I do it with antiseize compound on, for later removal. Did you find out if the cam chain has a master link? I remember something about that from way back when, but I don't know what it was. Bad time in my life. Age is one thing that goes up and never comes down, Momma. Anyway, good fortune with your head. _____ From: Creative Residential Designs <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Friday, August 28, 2009 5:56:53 PM Subject: [Nighthawk Lovers] Re: 83 cb650sc cam chain tensioner parts - difficulty finding Man, your words suddenly got real small there Stanley...hard for my old eyeballs to read. I have wrenched American steel bolts on my hotrods long before I got ahold of this Nighthawk. The Jap bolts are weaker steel is my point and I have to be more careful than with old American steel. It's just a fact and I've had to drill out some bolts due to that. Live and learn you know...and I learn from this forum almost every day even though I've been hanging out here for 3 years? WOW...time flies! HotrodMamma. ----- Original Message ----- From: stanley/ Randolph <mailto:[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Friday, August 28, 2009 3:05 PM Subject: [Nighthawk Lovers] Re: 83 cb650sc cam chain tensioner parts - difficulty finding Please keep in mind that I am being argumentative here and not quarrelsome: it doesn't matter where the bolts come from, if they're small they will break off. I have found no fault with Japanese fasteners. I have, however, with Chinese. When I have a bolt or nut that has been thightened way beyond what factory specs call for, I usually blame some dragline mechanic from the oilpatch. Ya gotta be from here - dragline mechanics are used to fastening nuts and bolts with sockets from a minimum of 1¾" on up, mostly over 2½";and they really put a bind on them with a cheater pipe about three feet long as well. No finesse when it comes to "delicate" machinery. Meaning, of course, bolts that are smaller in diameter than an inch (about 24mm), let alone 6mm. Fastening small diameter bolts does require paying attention to torque specifications, but then, so does fastening the head bolts, and in proper sequence as well, especially on smaller engines with high output, like Honda's inline fours. To do so makes for many miles of trouble-free riding. I am not bragging here, but my Beetle engines lasted because I learned not only the factory training, but those of Gene Berg, whose engines lasted longer and performed better than VW factory engines. They even used him as a consultant at one time because of his reputation; and probably because so many people were getting their service done with him instead of the dealer. Reduction in revenue speaks louder than complaints, maybe? Were I you, I would go over the torque of the head again after a hundred miles or so of riding even if there is no requirement of it in the service manual... I did with my Beetle engines, especially if they were in vans. I did that for two reasons: one, to see if there might be a stud that stripped, and two, to be certain that none worked loose otherwise; you see, the initial torque on Beetle heads was either 24 ft-lb or 27, depending on the type of stud and which block. Seem low? It is; but when the engine heats up, that becomes about 68 ft-lb. Honda's may be higher initially, but then Honda uses aluminum in the block, whereas the Beetle block was a magnesium alloy: softer material. Use too much initial torque and when the barrells heat up studs will pull. Of course the same could happen in aluminum, so it is crucial to torque carefully and according to instructions. I wish you well and may you be putting the rubber to the road successfully and for a long time when you finish... Stanley _____ From: Creative Residential Designs <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Friday, August 28, 2009 11:09:13 AM Subject: [Nighthawk Lovers] Re: 83 cb650sc cam chain tensioner parts - difficulty finding Thanks for the info Dennis. I'll be putting my "new" top end on next week. I bought it minus the chain so I needed to know this. I agree on using a torque wrench too. I've made that mistake, I.E. breaking a bolt and it SUCKS. I love my bike but these Japanese bolts just aren't as strong as good ol' American steel. Paul...don't fret too much, just pay close attention, do what Dennis says and get 'er done! If you have any doubts take photos as you go. If you want to see what I've done on my Nighthawks or Harley go to the Photobucket site and type in "HotrodMamma". I'm going to cut some gaskets for my Nighthawk soon and will post a how-to. The cam cover gaskets are hard to get and expensive. I can make one for $4.00 plus my time. I'm going to keep a pattern for later too. HotrodMamma. ----- Original Message ----- From: Dennis Hammerl <mailto:[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 11:09 PM Subject: [Nighthawk Lovers] Re: 83 cb650sc cam chain tensioner parts - difficulty finding Get a grip. Not all parts are updated at the same time. Without my asking a counter person to check, I recall that there is only one update spring and a couple of updates to the tensioner assy. You do or do not have the OEM manual ? Not Clymers book of the dead or some such. Please take the time to read the common service manual. All specific manuals are based on the viewer having done this. Cam sprockets are marked with lines that are to be in line with the head surface. Study the manual before disassembly and take pix if needed. Do not play switch with any parts. Replace each part (tappet adjusters, cam followers, cam journal caps, etc) in the EXACT place it came from. Lay parts out in an orderly fashion in a place that will not be disturbed by kids or pets. Do not introduce any new variables by a careless assembly. A light dab of grease on the cam lobes willl do,a drop or two of oil on each journal. Fill anti-foam chambers with oil. Before replacing the head cover, remove the plugs (should be out already) and spin the engine over with the starter. Repeat in short bursts untill oil is seen flowing. You want tips ? Here's one. Some tech's have called me over because the cam chain isn't long enough... duh. It did fit. What happens is that it "drops" a link under the crankshaft. You will need to rotate the crank a bit while holding the chain up and it will straighten out. The possibility exists that you are a he-man. Use a torque wrench on ALL fasteners. It's way too easy to strip the 6mm bolts that used throughout. Start each one with fingers to make sure you don't strip any. Specs are in the front section on the manual. Service bulletins from that time are all on paper. Where ours got to after all these years may be a chore to locate. Rob may have taken them when he left. Just stop fretting about all this and be glad you can get parts. The original (questionable) parts have disappeared. ONLY updated parts are available. Honda bought back those many years ago. I lied. I've only got 37 years with Honda. 42 total. First with Suzuki and Yamaha. Wanna' "degree in" the cams ? Makes 'em fly. Advanced procedure, but big performance boost. --- On Thu, 8/27/09, oldschoolgwin <[email protected]> wrote: From: oldschoolgwin <[email protected]> Subject: [Nighthawk Lovers] Re: 83 cb650sc cam chain tensioner parts - difficulty finding To: "Nighthawk Motorcycle Lovers!" <[email protected]> Date: Thursday, August 27, 2009, 11:39 PM Thanks Dennis. Do you suspect the -010 tensioner bracket had the modifications that "improved" the tensioner from the original? Do you now of a technical service bulletin addressing the repair of the failure. I think this may be valuable to those of us with less historical experience with the NH tensioner (42 years at Honda - wow that's more knowledge than i can imagine). I tried to find a TSB on the web but no luck. Well i found a NOS spring (14514-ME5-010) at a Honda shop in Ohio - it should be here in a few days - at that time i'll remove the tensioner and measure spring force between the two springs (maybe that will prove hopefull if there is a large difference). It doesn't sound too difficult when reading the OEM manual but a bet they leave a lot of the little tricks out. I guess just think everything well through before you do it. I think I'll take a picture of the cam sprocket allignment marks (with #1 at TDC compression) before the removal to ensure it is reset the same after intall (that part makes me a bit nervous!). The OEM manual was a bit unclear of what cam mark alligns with what part of the head surface. And I won't swap positions on any components. Thanks, Paul Aug 26, 2:51 pm, Dennis Hammerl <[email protected]> wrote: > Part sequence is .000 original, 010 first mod, 020 second mod. > > --- On Wed, 8/26/09, oldschoolgwin <[email protected]> wrote: > > From: oldschoolgwin <[email protected]> > Subject: [Nighthawk Lovers] 83 cb650sc cam chain tensioner parts - difficulty finding > To: "Nighthawk Motorcycle Lovers!" <[email protected]> > Date: Wednesday, August 26, 2009, 3:18 PM > > Does anyone know where i can get the spring and tensioner bracket > from, most places show them on the part finder but they are not in > stocka and no longer made (at least by Honda). > > Spring: 14514-me5-010 > Bracket Tensioner: 14500-ME5-030 > > I found a NOS bracket tensioner on Ebay but it is a -010. So it went -. > 01, -020, and the last is -030. I don't know if the -010 part is the > original with the problems that required the upgrade to the next part > revision > > At minimum I need the tensioner spring or there isn't much reason to > take the bike apart. Yikes - no way to solve the chain rattle? > > Thanks for the help. > > Paul --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Nighthawk Motorcycle Lovers!" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/nighthawk_lovers?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
