Hi Jack,
My argument is this is not a hard or software problem, but a wetware problem,
hard to shake off million years of evolution. And IIRC during covid, didn't the
IETF do online only meetings?
I am not saying video conferencing is doomed, it came a long way in the covid
years and is 'here to stay', but it will only replace face to face meetings for
some conditions, is all I am saying....
On 14 November 2023 14:27:28 GMT-05:00, Jack Haverty <[email protected]> wrote:
>In the beginning days of the Arpanet, circa early 1970s, ARPA made a policy
>decision about use of the Arpanet. First, Arpa Program Managers, located on
>the East Coast of the US, were assigned computer accounts on USC-ISIA, located
>on the West Coast in LA. Thus to do their work, exchanging email, editting
>documents, and such, they had to *use* the Arpanet to connect their terminals
>in Washington to the PDP-10 in California - 3000 miles away.
>
>Second, ARPA began requiring all of their contractors (researchers at
>Universities etc.) to interact with Arpa using email and FTP. If your site was
>"on the Arpanet", you had to use the Arpanet. If you wanted your proposal for
>next year's research to be funded, you had to submit your proposal using the
>net.
>
>This policy caused a profound attention, by everyone involved, to making the
>Arpanet work and be useful as a collaboration tool.
>
>JCR Licklider (aka Lick) was my advisor at MIT, and then my boss when I joined
>the Research Staff. Lick had been at ARPA for a while, promoting his vision
>of a "Galactic Network" that resulted in the Arpanet as a first step. At MIT,
>Lick still had need for lots of interactions with others. My assignment was
>to build and operate the email system for Lick's group at MIT on our own
>PDP-10. Lick had a terminal in his office and was online a lot. If email
>didn't work, I heard about it. If the Arpanet didn't work, BBN heard about
>it.
>
>This pressure was part of Arpa policy. Sometimes it's referred to as "eating
>your own dog food" -- i.e., making sure your "dog" will get the same kind of
>nutrition you enjoy. IMHO, that pressure policy was important, perhaps
>crucial, to the success of the Arpanet.
>
>In the 70s, meetings still occurred, but a lot of progress was made through
>the use of the Arpanet. You can only do so much with email and file
>interactions. Today, the possibilities for far richer interactions are much
>more prevalent. But IMHO they are held back, possibly because no one is
>feeling the pressure to "make it work". Gigabit throughputs are common, but
>why does my video and audio still break up...?
>
>It's important to have face-to-face meetings, but perhaps if the IETF
>scheduled a future meeting to be online only, whatever needs to happen to make
>it work would happen? Perhaps...
>
>Even a "game" might drive progress. At Interop '92, we resurrected the old
>"MazeWars" game using computers scattered across the show exhibit halls. The
>engineers in the control room above the floor felt the pressure to make sure
>the Game continued to run. At the time, the Internet itself was too slow for
>enjoyable gameplay at any distance. Will the Internet 30 years later work?
>
>Or perhaps the IETF, or ISOC, or someone could take on a highly visible demo
>involving non-techie end users. An online meeting of the UN General
>Assembly? Or some government bodies - US Congress, British Parliament, etc.
>
>Such an event would surface the issues, both technical and policy, to the
>engineers, corporations, policy-makers, and others who might have the ability
>and interest to "make it work".
>
>Jack
>
>
>On 11/14/23 10:10, Sebastian Moeller wrote:
>> Hi Jack,
>>
>>
>>> On Nov 14, 2023, at 13:02, Jack Haverty via
>>> Nnagain<[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>> If video conferencing worked well enough, they would not have to all get
>>> together in one place and would instead hold IETF meetings online ...?
>> [SM] Turns out that humans are social creatures, and some things work
>> better face-to-face and in the hallway (and if that is only building trust
>> and sympathy) than over any remote technology.
>>
>>
>>> Did anyone measure latency? Does anyone measure throughput of "useful"
>>> traffic - e.g., excluding video/audio data that didn't arrive in time to be
>>> actually used on the screen or speaker?
>> [SM] Utility is in the eye of the beholder, no?
>>
>>
>>> Jack Haverty
>>>
>>>
>>> On 11/14/23 09:25, Vint Cerf via Nnagain wrote:
>>>> if they had not been all together they would have been consuming tons of
>>>> video capacity doing video conference calls....
>>>>
>>>> :-))
>>>> v
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Nov 14, 2023 at 10:46 AM Livingood, Jason via
>>>> Nnagain<[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> On the subject of how much bandwidth does one household need, here's a fun
>>>> stat for you.
>>>>
>>>> At the IETF’s 118th meeting last week (Nov 4 – 10, 2023), there were
>>>> over 1,000 engineers in attendance. At peak there were 870 devices
>>>> connected to the WiFi network. Peak bandwidth usage:
>>>>
>>>> • Downstream peak ~750 Mbps
>>>> • Upstream ~250 Mbps
>>>> From my pre-meeting Twitter poll
>>>> (https://twitter.com/jlivingood/status/1720060429311901873):
>>>>
>>>> <image001.png>
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to:
>>>> Vint Cerf
>>>> Google, LLC
>>>> 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor
>>>> Reston, VA 20190
>>>> +1 (571) 213 1346
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> until further notice
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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