On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 12:42:32PM -0800, Mikeal Rogers wrote: > There seems to be a slight miss-match between Debian process and node process > that I'd like to flush out. > > First off, node is unstable until it hits 1.0, period. All node releases, > especially old ones, are unstable. > > Node is not Ruby or Python and shouldn't be treated as such in Debian. Debian > should not allow packages to be added that "depend" on node, ever. This is a > big departure from what you're probably used to with Ruby and Python but this > is "how things work" w/ node and it would be better for Debian to accept that > rather than compete with it.
So, you're saying we shouldn't allow apps like TileMill onto end users computers? Why? > > Node 0.8 is more stable than 0.6 by any definition of "stable." The > definition of stability you are citing, which is based Ruby/Python/Perl, that > packages which depend on a particular version can't be updated frivolously, > should not exist because Debian should not allow a program to be added to the > package manager that depends on node. > > It is node and npm's responsibility to install node programs, resolve > dependencies, and not allow you to upgrade or install packages against > versions of node that won't work. This is **our** job, and we're pretty good > at it, so please don't try to create a parallel system with differing > semantics that solves the same problem. I'd say the same thing about NPM with regards to dpkg. We were here first, why didn't you integrate? (You see, it's a silly argument) in fact, most casual users won't even know NPM exists, all their software is handled by dpkg, and fiddling around with something like that isn't fun if all they want is something, like, say, tilemill. > > I understand the sentiment from some of the Debian maintainers that we're > throwing work at them. We can stop doing that if you give the node project > responsibility for a task we've already accepted and are actually quite good > at (managing dependencies and programs related to different versions of node) > and it would be even better if you could take "stable" and "experimental" > releases that *we* define as experimental and stable. Letting another package manager install files into the filesystem globally outside the archive is a bit insane. Not to mention NPM is insecure (anyone can upload, no review), and has no means to run post/pre install hook to aid in configuring software. The idea behind an archive is that you can install whatever you want and it won't break your machine. Annyway, this is going to lead to a flame-war. I don't really want to deal with another one of these chats. Fondly, Paul > > Thanks > -Mikeal > > On Jan 15, 2013, at January 15, 20138:57 AM, Paul Tagliamonte > <[email protected]> wrote: > > > On Tue, Jan 15, 2013 at 11:50:20AM -0500, Chad Engler wrote: > >> +1 for nvm, I got really tired of waiting for package updates in > >> different > >> distros. > > > > So, let me jump in this before it becomes a dogpile on Debian, which I > > think is unfair, frankly. > > > > I hate that Debian *unstable* is out of date -- no matter what. If not > > (because of a big, important package), I'd expect it to find it's way > > into Debian Experimental. > > > > However -- remember, Debian isn't a "for developers" Distro, like, at > > all. It's reputation is for *stability* -- think of it this way -- 99% > > of the users of Debian (and downstreams, like Ubuntu, Knoppix, Mint, > > etc) don't even know what their app is written in. > > > > If you do production work, you know it *sucks* when your distro removes > > something from under you -- and that's what stable branches are for. > > > > It's our job (as Distro hackers) to keep things *stable*. The issue with > > updating our Stable branch too quickly is that API breaks on core > > packages (like Node) and all the apps using it break. > > > > We don't package for developers :) > > > > If we update all the apps to latest upstream all the time, what's the > > point in a stable release? :) > > > > So, to directly address this; that is expected. Developers can't be > > expected to be happy with the default version of Python or Node or Ruby > > in *any* production-worthy distro, because it's going to be (by virtue > > of being tested) out of date. > > > > That being said, I do think Node should be updated in Experimental > > (since we're in freeze, we can't update testing / stable, so we need to > > keep that path clear). > > > > From a huge node fan, > > Paul > > > >> > >> > >> > >> -Chad > >> > >> > >> > >> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf > >> Of Arunoda Susiripala > >> Sent: Monday, January 14, 2013 10:49 PM > >> To: [email protected] > >> Subject: Re: [nodejs] Re: Debian Nodejs Package Maintainer > >> > >> > >> > >> Install binaries from [1]nodejs.org or use a tool like nvm > >> - [2]https://github.com/creationix/nvm > >> > >> > >> > >> Thats the best way to get update yourself. > >> > >> On Tue, Jan 15, 2013 at 4:04 AM, Ben Noordhuis <[3][email protected]> > >> wrote: > >> > >> On Mon, Jan 14, 2013 at 10:56 PM, kapouer <[4][email protected]> wrote: > >>> Of course nodejs is going to be updated in debian, it's only a matter of > >>> time. > >>> It is not small work to do, so you can help... or just wait, but don't > >> hold > >>> your breath. > >>> Instead of working i just spend two hours on that matter tonight. Will > >> you > >>> give me > >>> back those two hours by helping packaging nodejs in return ? > >>> > >>> Jérémy. > >> > >> The new stable, v0.10, is around the corner, probably end of this > >> month. You may want to consider skipping v0.8 altogether. > >> > >> -- > >> Job Board: [5]http://jobs.nodejs.org/ > >> Posting guidelines: > >> [6]https://github.com/joyent/node/wiki/Mailing-List-Posting-Guidelines > >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > >> Groups "nodejs" group. > >> To post to this group, send email to [7][email protected] > >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >> [8][email protected] > >> For more options, visit this group at > >> [9]http://groups.google.com/group/nodejs?hl=en?hl=en > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Arunoda Susiripala > >> > >> > >> > >> [10]@arunoda > >> > >> [11]https://github.com/arunoda > >> > >> [12]http://www.linkedin.com/in/arunoda > >> > >> -- > >> Job Board: [13]http://jobs.nodejs.org/ > >> Posting guidelines: > >> [14]https://github.com/joyent/node/wiki/Mailing-List-Posting-Guidelines > >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > >> Groups "nodejs" group. > >> To post to this group, send email to [15][email protected] > >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >> [16][email protected] > >> For more options, visit this group at > >> [17]http://groups.google.com/group/nodejs?hl=en?hl=en > >> > >> -- > >> Job Board: [18]http://jobs.nodejs.org/ > >> Posting guidelines: > >> [19]https://github.com/joyent/node/wiki/Mailing-List-Posting-Guidelines > >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > >> Groups "nodejs" group. > >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected] > >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >> [email protected] > >> For more options, visit this group at > >> [20]http://groups.google.com/group/nodejs?hl=en?hl=en > >> > >> References > >> > >> Visible links > >> 1. http://nodejs.org/ > >> 2. https://github.com/creationix/nvm > >> 3. mailto:[email protected] > >> 4. mailto:[email protected] > >> 5. http://jobs.nodejs.org/ > >> 6. https://github.com/joyent/node/wiki/Mailing-List-Posting-Guidelines > >> 7. mailto:[email protected] > >> 8. mailto:nodejs%[email protected] > >> 9. http://groups.google.com/group/nodejs?hl=en?hl=en > >> 10. http://twitter.com/arunoda > >> 11. https://github.com/arunoda > >> 12. http://www.linkedin.com/in/arunoda > >> 13. http://jobs.nodejs.org/ > >> 14. https://github.com/joyent/node/wiki/Mailing-List-Posting-Guidelines > >> 15. mailto:[email protected] > >> 16. mailto:[email protected] > >> 17. http://groups.google.com/group/nodejs?hl=en?hl=en > >> 18. http://jobs.nodejs.org/ > >> 19. https://github.com/joyent/node/wiki/Mailing-List-Posting-Guidelines > >> 20. http://groups.google.com/group/nodejs?hl=en?hl=en > >> WARNING: gnome-keyring:: couldn't connect to: > >> /run/user/tag/keyring-pGYP3G/pkcs11: No such file or directory > > > > -- > > .''`. Paul Tagliamonte <[email protected]> > > : :' : Proud Debian Developer > > `. `'` 4096R / 8F04 9AD8 2C92 066C 7352 D28A 7B58 5B30 807C 2A87 > > `- http://people.debian.org/~paultag > > -- > Job Board: http://jobs.nodejs.org/ > Posting guidelines: > https://github.com/joyent/node/wiki/Mailing-List-Posting-Guidelines > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "nodejs" group. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected] > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [email protected] > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/nodejs?hl=en?hl=en -- .''`. Paul Tagliamonte <[email protected]> : :' : Proud Debian Developer `. `'` 4096R / 8F04 9AD8 2C92 066C 7352 D28A 7B58 5B30 807C 2A87 `- http://people.debian.org/~paultag
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